To think truly chaotic messy people don't/can't change?

[houseofchaosandclothes]

I have two small children, a demanding full-time job, a partner with a demanding full-time job and a parent with stage 4 cancer. (I also probably have ADHD but I'm stuck on a waiting list and not sure what difference a diagnosis would make. )

Yet the biggest source of stress in my life is my house. There are clothes everywhere - in laundry baskets waiting to be sorted and washed, in different shaped laundry baskets waiting to be sorted and put away. The toys are out of control. We can spend an hour cleaning the kitchen for one meal time to leave it destroyed.

I have read every thread about housekeeping and organising approaches in the world, and nothing seems to translate. It seems to take me twice as long as all these guides say it should to do something. TOMM is insane: fifteen minutes to do exactly what with a load of laundry? I can throw one in the washing machine in that time but sorting and putting it away will take me 45. We have a cleaner, and I would say spend 3/4 hours a week trying to scoop up the chaos enough she can clean around it. I try to declutter but every inch we reclaim seems to take a day and a half, and my limited annual leave and spare time is better spent with my parents or children. My husband does about 75% of the housework as he is much more efficient but we're still in chaos.

And I have spent YEARS of my life convinced I can change it. I grew up in a somewhat similar house. I'm 40. I have made half-hearted stabs at everything from flylady to a slob comes clean to Marie Kondo and nothing has changed and I'm starting to think that actually all the people who use these methods are not, in fact, the truly chaotic and messy. Or if they are, they don't have jobs/kids/sick parents/all of the above.

So I guess this is my question: has anyone truly messy and chaotic and terrible at housework reformed themselves? Have they done it when they have other things going on? Or are all these approaches just ways for ultimately organised people to get back on track and have nothing to say to the truly messy among us?

Speaking as a profoundly messy person (probably ADHD keep meaning to get on a list) I have got quite a lot better in the last 10 years by keeping at it. My advice is

Get a declutterer in and get shot of 80% of your shit. You are terminally screwed if you don’t do this. I don’t know any declutter person (have used about 5 over the years) who doesn’t stand next to you with binbags. Go onto the professional declutters website, they have a few that deal with ADHD or email half a dozen local ones and ask who can deal with ADHD and also help you arrange to get stuff taken away.

The above is the most important thing. Get it done.

Once all the crap has gone, get your declutter to come back and sort your storage. It’s really important to has a person who understands ADHD / chronic disorganisation here. Storage needs to be visual and have minimum friction - you can succeed in chucking stuff in a box, if you have to put it in a draw you are (much) less likely to succeed.

After that one thing in one thing out so the clutter doesn’t rebuild (it will though, so you might need someone in to do a mini sweep every 18 months). See if Anglo House collections operate near you. They do a charity collection once a month.

Can you get the cleaner in twice a week and get her to do laundry? If you can, do.

Once you are clear I think a slob comes clean isn’t bad.

But other than that, divvy up jobs, give it a diary slot that’s realistic and stick a jobs chart on the wall that’s a diary so you can see when you are meant to do it. The concept that every job is 2 things - the job and the tidy up is useful to consider here.

Get the whole family to work with the system - so if you need to have the laundry down so you / the cleaner can do it on Tues/Wed then the whole family needs to have laundry bins in their rooms that they bring down on Monday night. If it becomes an everyone programme it’s more likely to work.

My 3 things are

Declutter (and then get storage that works

Delegate everything you can

Accept it’s never going to come naturally and you will have to put effort in

Missing the point of the thread, but... Surely no-one packs away their toaster?

Ulster says YES to that

I was going to suggest getting a cleaner but you already have one.
With young kids and a FT job obviously you don't have much time..

I think kids toys do need very regular clear outs as otherwise they get too much.
I always take the washing out of the machine once its done. I don't put things like DCs underwear away though as it takes too long, it mainly gets kept in a storage box.

Absolutely you do need to declutter massively.

ADHD - you probably get overwhelmed and exhausted hence not being able to get back from holiday and shove a wash straight on.

I have no idea why but simple things like putting my shoes away under the bed rather than next to the bed is just well "impossible" 🤷🏽‍♀️

I expect you need less stuff - and a place for every single item to be packed away out of sight.

Especially clothes. I used to have this problem but now I have the minimum amount for the kids. This forces you to keep on top of the washing and putting clothes away takes far less time. If it takes 45 mins you have WAY too many!

Eg. One of my kids only has:
2 x trousers, (his PE trackies)
3 x shorts
5 x t-shirts
2 x jumper
Plus one set of uniform for each school day.

I do a wash every couple of days

Also have ADHD, also wasn't sure I could ever not live in chaos. What works for me:

• Cleaner (you've got that bit, so that's a start)
• Meds (the difference a diagnosis makes is huge mentally and access to meds if you can have them is also really helpful)
• Realistic expectations
• Slow and steady

So when we moved to a house bigger than our tiny terrace and it was still a mess all the time, I thought I was just doomed. But it's because I was trying to tackle ALL THE MESS at once.

So eventually (and again, this is v much a work in progress and the meds help enormously) I started focusing on one thing, and habit stacking/creating processes where I could.

First step was the kitchen - always a shit tip. So I created systems where there weren't any (new storage boxes, fridge organisers, gave everything a home). Then I did a big declutter in one go and put everything in their nice new homes in a way that actually worked (e.g. we were using a hard-to-get-to cupboard to store pans, so they were never getting put away, so I moved them to a giant pull-out drawer and put the slow cooker and rice cooker and shit we don't use often in the awkward cupboard). Then I did some habit stacking: while my tea is stewing in the morning, I empty the dishwasher top drawer. Just the top drawer where the cutlery goes is my goal - and I find 90% of the time I do the rest, too. Now I associate my morning brew with emptying the dishwasher, and vice versa - so it helps me have a morning routine (good for brain) and I get some free dopamine for achieving something first thing. Smashing, after a few weeks it became second nature. Okay then I stacked another habit on top of that - once I've made my cup of tea and I'm off back upstairs to get dressed or start work, take anything I can fit in my other hand that shouldn't be in the kitchen back up with me (there is always something - I can't stop the chaos forming but I can develop systems to deal with it!).

And so on round the house - but only once the previous thing became second nature. Once it was, I moved on to something else: for example, part of my finishing work at home routine now is closing my laptop, and then taking down any dirty washing to the washing machine. I make every single habit work for me as much as possible - this gives me a nice mental break from work which stops me getting overly focused in something or feeling stuck at my desk AND it's a habit now which gets my washing downstairs.

Now it's never 100% a shitshow - rarely perfect, but I've built it in. Instead of trying to revolutionise my life with a new method, I've just done it in tiny incremental bits.

Start with something little - when you get up in the morning to go for a wee, throw all the kids' bath toys into a special container you get just for that. Or when you go to make a coffee, put 5 things away while the kettle is boiling. Or always stick a wash on first thing in the morning.

It's possible! I used to genuinely live like my house had been burgled, it was horrific. I didn't even have the excuse of children, I just moved round it like a tornado and never managed to keep on top of it. Now it's mostly alright, most of the time.

BTW I also suspect I have ADHD (runs in my family) this definitely makes things more difficult, don't beat yourself up.

Do It Now. That’s all. Get the stuff out of the washing machine and iron it and put it away all at once. As you put it away, and come back downstairs bring the next load. Never go into any room without putting something back in its rightful place.

don’t put it down, put it away. Just Do It Now.

It can’t build up if you do this.

Also race yourself. Time yourself doing a task and try to beat it the next time. Emptying the dishwasher, putting away a load of clothes, etc etc.

I almost definitely have ADHD as well and have struggled with this my whole life. Luckily DH is incredibly tidy and can sort of move through a room and it tidies itself behind him. I describe it to him as being on 'hard mode': I can do it, but it takes amazing concentration and I have to sort of narrate each step to myself ('pick the socks up, walk to the laundry basket, put them in'). I also have a senior job.

Apart from marrying one of nature's tidy people, really go as minimal as possible. Moving is good impetus. We throw stuff out/donate/move on all the time. Places for stuff is good- I can always find the car keys- they're in the same place every day (but it has to be a minimal effort place- they're on a shelf near the front door, so I just unlock and then chuck the keys on the shelf). Also multiple things- have a laundry basket in every room if the clothes making it to them is a step too far. You really need to cut down the number of steps to do anything.

But I totally get you- implementing some system will never work. I felt years feeling rubbish about it- I'm not a lazy person but I just couldn't make it happen. I can't 'see' how to do it.

@housemaus Great post, I love this advice!

Yes @hausmaus has great advice! And thinking about it, that's sort of how DH operates naturally.

I’m reading this thread as a naturally neat person who has a messy house largely as DP has ADHD; I do think if that’s the case it’s very hard to change. And time works differently if you have ADHD, so putting a wash on can really take 45 mins!

Less stuff definitely definitely helps, and creating a place for everything in storage areas and making that place easily accessible: it’s no good if XYZ lives in the cupboard if stuff falls out as you open the cupboard and you have to jostle and move things to put it away. One thing DP does is constantly buy things to buy a solution to his mess, like if he just has the right box/container/system/shelves he won’t be messy. But then the container arrives in a cardboard box, which itself gets put on the counter instead of straight in the recycling, then he finds the container needs assembling and a special type of screwdriver, which he has but can’t find (because he actually has 10 crammed in the cupboard but they’re hidden by all the other stuff), so he orders another one, discards that packaging too, but by then his brain has moved on to another idea so the container and the screwdriver just sit there, cluttering.

I periodically go on decluttering rampages, which helps.

It’s funny though: I just left the bedroom where I was with the baby, and swapped wit DP so I could eat. On my way out I grabbed a sicky babygro to throw in the wash basket, a book that belongs elsewhere, and some other items to put away: it’s automatic. Stepped outside onto the landing to find DD’s clothes in a heap from bathroom (which DP supervised), bath still full, wet flannel on the floor, light on. He’s walked right past it all and genuinely doesn’t see it.

Not sure where I’m going with this but I do think: less stuff will help. Systems help but only if they’re intuitive to what you actually DO. I can implement a bowl for keys and pocket detritus all I like, but it has to be in the place that DP naturally pauses and dumps that stuff out, even if I don’t really want a bowl there. A ban on stuff incoming to the house: cancel things like amazing prime if you have it. Don’t multitask if it’s not your strength: watching DP empty the dishwasher of clean stuff while making breakfast and watching something on his iPad is painful to behold. Always “close the task”: making dinner isn’t just cooking, it’s clearing up, loading the dishwasher, wiping surfaces and “resetting” the kitchen back to baseline zero.

But be kind to yourself; you have a lot going on.

Oh yes I agree also with the person who said make getting a clean house a top priority for a while.

One of my strategies to manage ADHD is allowing myself 3 spots for things I can think about and work towards. Before I did this I would have so many things that I was vaguely aiming to "work on" - I wanted to improve our diets and the house and my exercise and playing an instrument and cutting down my screen time and my sleep routine and socialise more and streamline my clothing and mindfulness and a child's homework and another child's chores and another child's sleep and my language proficiency and setting up a blog and getting a job or a better job and and and and... And I did none of it because it was all overwhelming and nobody can work on that many things at once. But then I'd feel simultaneously guilty because I wasn't making progress and vaguely think oh yes, I'm working on that, even though I wasn't.

Neurotypical people would probably prioritise without necessarily having a list somewhere, but what I need to do for me is have three distinct areas where I'm focusing on and I know that anything productive I'm doing needs to be towards those. So at the moment it's DS2 behaviour, improve the house, and then I have a blank slot because the thing that was in my third slot doesn't need so much of my attention any more.

This has really helped. So because for example diet and exercise are not on the list I give myself full permission not to do any exercise except for walking and eat whatever convenience food is easy. I do not feel guilty about it. I am not letting it take up brain space. It is on my list to possibly move into a top spot when one becomes available but I haven't decided what to put in that slot yet. Probably socialising.

Because improving the house is in my top spot that's what made me do things like seek out podcasts or books, I'm binge watching all of the sort your life out etc. I'm allocating money in the budget to buying paint or organising solutions or anything like that.

It won't need to be a priority for ever. I've found that items just stop needing to be in that top category because I stop thinking about them. For example, one of ours at one point was money. So I researched loads and set us up with a budget. I got a job. I applied for things that we weren't receiving. I cancelled subscriptions that we weren't using. None of that big one off stuff needs doing again and the budget is working well by itself so it's not a priority any more but the effects of me prioritising it previously have stuck.

I prioritised language at one point. I tried to speak the language I'm learning every day. My skills improved and it doesn't need to be a current focus, although might come back in future.

It's been one of the most helpful things I've done.

This! My house is so much better than it ever it has been. I am naturally messy and chaotic, her books were a game changer for me. Its all about changing your mindset - and decluttering!!

I think that you can change. I often watch the sort your life out programme and get anxiety just watching how people live. Their lives and homes are so much lighter after. Decluttering can make a huge difference. We moved a few years ago after living in previous house for 15 years (we merged 2 houses). We cleared at least 30% of our house. New house feels so much more manageable- does need another clear out tbf as dc outgrown loads of toys.

I think if you return to A Slob Comes Clean and just listen to the podcasts, you might find you’re inspired to more than a half-hearted attempt.

In particular, if your problem is laundry, follow her ‘Laundry Day’ system and see if it makes a difference. And chuck out 30-50% of your clothes. Just bag them up and put them somewhere inaccessible for now.

OP I empathise completely. A couple of weeks ago I broke down and cried that I have spent my life fighting against my chaos thinking it was something I could improve if I just tried harder or found the right technique. I'm fucking tired of beating myself up about it.
@StepHigh you have looked inside my brain! The revelation that every job is two jobs has blown my mind. I can see that every single job I do is half finished but I never understood why...and you have pinpointed exactly why. I do most of the laundry but once it's on the dryer that's me done then DH has to bring it in and put it all away; if I do some work in the garden, DH spends half an hour putting the tools away and filling the green bin because the prunings are dumped on the lawn; if I batch cook or make a cake, he ends up washing up most of the cutlery and baking equipment we own as I can't bear the mess that I've made.
@Shouldbeasleepbynow I've just reserved Struggle Care from the library, thanks for the recommendation.

And I agree that you have to make it a priority if you want it to change, at least till habits are established.

It absolutely sucks and it is boring as fuck but hey ho.

This is what jumped out at me from your OP:
Have they done it when they have other things going on?

And the answer is yes, but either it’s not quick and a dramatic change or yes, but they made it a priority.

I think that decluttering will still only work if you can change your natural approach to maintain it. If we go away for a weekend with one small bag each, the hotel room will have my stuff scattered around all four corners after the first night (probably earlier but I'm being generous to myself 😂).

I can be tidy if surrounded by tidy people, it rubs off on me and my efforts aren't immediately undermined which is motivating. Unfortunately I am usually surrounded by family members who are messier than me with bitty hobbies and creative messy jobs they do from home so I'm fighting a losing battle. When DH isn't working too hard he's good at doing tidying but when he's busy he just leaves a trail of stuff behind him!
I would love to declutter more but my family are collectors and we have a big house so I content myself with buying lots of shelving.
At some point well downsize and I will have a more modern easy to clean house with less people and stuff and a husband with time to help more and it will be acceptably tidy, I'm determined.

Don't do too much washing, make sure that hoodies and jumpers etc get worn a few times. Hang up towels and use them a few times before washing.
Before bedtime every single day empty all the clean laundry onto your bed and put it all away. Help the kids put their clean clothes away, even if they are tiny they can help.
If you do this every single day you'll be on top of the washing and other tidying will be less overwhelming.

If laundry is a main source of the problem PLEASE take my advice and wash loads by person rather than by type. In my house each person has a basket with their name on and when it’s full for a load it all goes in together. It is so much easier to fold and put away when there aren’t 4 or 5 people’s stuff there.

Am absolutely no help as, at 42, we are only marginally better than we were years ago even though I’d have thought this started improving with age. The only thing is, I’ve accepted we’re a slightly chaotic family and made peace with it. For two reasons:

1. my brother and sister both have insanely clean houses and are organised even though brother has two boys sister has four children. I realised that this is because their hobbies are cleaning. Bro and sip iron on a Friday night, Saturday is cleaning and gardening and Sunday is getting ready for Monday. They are amazing but … well, it’s just not me
2. My mum was organised and clutter free. If we didn’t physically store something we wanted it was recycled or binned. I have lost so many of my prized books, art work, magazines etc this way. I know there’s a happy medium and as I said I am getting better, but I don’t know that the grass is always greener in a total mess free home!!

This really resonates with me and I'm pretty sure I have ADHD too. We're living in a tiny space at the minute as we do major house renovations and that is making the situation a lot worse as we are living in a pile of clutter.

I try to pick one small thing and sort and tidy that, then I often find that the satisfaction that brings motivates me to do another thing. So I might pick the fridge, empty the contents onto the table, give it a clean, then go through the food as I put it back in, throwing out any out of date stuff.

Or I might pick one drawer, maybe the drawer that the kids pyjamas are in, take everything out, check what I have and remove the ones that don't fit anymore and put the rest back in nice and organised so it's clear to see what I have.

For me, doing things in manageable chunks really helps. I would get too overwhelmed if I told myself I had to sort and clean the whole kitchen or all of the kids clothes, and then I'd never do anything.