Page 6 | Are junior docs really only on £14.09 per hour?

yawningmorning · 2023-03-13T06:54:35+00:00

That is so low. I've seen the headline that you can earn more per hour working in pret. No wonder they are striking.

vivainsomnia · 13/03/2023 09:10

Yawn, 🥱 if they don't like it retrain find a new job. Plenty of others will do it, the putty party is growing really old now
Indeed! And then we will have yet another thread about how bad posters' experience was at the hospital, how outrageous it is that they had to wait X hours, how they can get to see a GP, and wondering why they can't train more doctors and what are their taxes paying for....

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:11

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:10

NHS consultants earn a max of 120k a year. It's hardly tech company levels.

Show quote history

Duh Tech company's make money, NHS spend tax payer money. 🙄

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:13

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:11

Duh Tech company's make money, NHS spend tax payer money. 🙄

Show quote history

Yes. The point being that it isn't hundreds of thousands as the PP said. Of course they can bump it up with private work.

TortolaParadise · 13/03/2023 09:15

Salverus · 13/03/2023 07:08

The majority of the time.

Dn has just started as a teacher - got poor A levels and has a 2.2 from a low ranked uni and is training while working. It's not really comparable with a junior doctor. She's lovely and I'm sure she'll make a good teacher but on paper there's no reason she should earn as much as someone who spent 7 years in training with a very competitive degree and top A levels.

Show quote history

I hear your perspective but high grade/lower grades have little bearing on the quality of practitioner you are/become once in post.

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:15

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:13

Yes. The point being that it isn't hundreds of thousands as the PP said. Of course they can bump it up with private work.

Show quote history

Well if you complaining about an earning potential of 120K per year before topping it up, say soo and see how much support you get. Total and utter greed!

rookiemere · 13/03/2023 09:16

£120k is a more than healthy annual salary coupled with a generous pension.

Junior doctors pay is a real anomaly, as most other public professionals don't get that huge pay bump in their careers.

I'm not saying it's right that junior doctors get low salaries for the work they do, but I do have concerns that upping that salary means that those on £120k will get even more when it's 3-3 times the average salary in the UK.

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:17

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:15

Well if you complaining about an earning potential of 120K per year before topping it up, say soo and see how much support you get. Total and utter greed!

Show quote history

Don't be ridiculous. That's after almost 20 years of making life and death decisions for the benefit of ungrateful people like you. Personally you couldn't pay me enough to have to deal with the whinging, entitled British public.

medicmumma · 13/03/2023 09:17

Because the intelligence, qualifications and dedication needed to be a doctor, as well as the responsibility far outweighs that of being a teacher and a barrister. Both are important jobs in society but do not compare to being responsible for peoples lives.

And with regards to investment banking - they work incredibly hard and yes while their pay per hour is low (not as low as doctors) they have a good gross pay + many other benefits (paid work trips abroad, able to expense meals/travel, an actual desk to work on rather than a bin next to a computer...)

Cloudhoppingdancer · 13/03/2023 09:18

Teddybear120 · 13/03/2023 09:07

The pension arrangements for the current junior doctors are already different to those close to retirement now. It is the pay erosion and change in conditions which is a factor in this strike. However it is also patient saftey but this cannot be the ballot reason for strike, nor can pension rules.

I’m junior doctor.
The pay is worth 25-30% less than 10 years ago, this is the same for many public sector workers with pay freezes and below inflation rises but this can only be swallowed for a certain about of time. Now with inflation being around 10% it has become a real struggle. If rises had been at inflation or closer to it for the last 10 years people wouldn’t be asking for such big rises. This is the same for teachers, police, firefighters, (who have agreed 12% over 2 years), paramedics, nurses, civil servant workers (the list goes on). Each of those have pressures, poor conditions etc. I do not compare my job to my teacher friends etc, of course they deserve pay rises. It isn’t a race to the bottom- in an ideal world we would all have pay restored. Also asking for this high amount is because we are talking about 23/24 (we got 2% in 22/23 which will be not rediscussed) while the nurses etc are all striking over last years pay and pay moving forward so headline figures for settlements in the end may look different but over multiple years may look more similar. Secondly it’s an opening demand- the government are refusing to even sit down with us. I and many of my colleagues will settle for less but you have to start somewhere.

There are conditions to my work that people don’t even realise. I move post every 6 months- working in different teams, different specialities and even different hospitals with different systems I have to learn on my feet. I’ve had friends move 200 miles with no choice and only 8 weeks notice as that is where they are told to go. I regularly get called on my day off asking me to come in and cover and even had an argument with an administrator for 20 minutes that I wasn’t coming in on my day off as I had no childcare options- I was then told my childcare arrangements were not robust enough and I really needed to think about how I could meet the needs of the ward in the future. I already pay a premium for flexible childcare and extra care as I can never guarantee my finish time. For a 9 hour shift- I pay for 11 hours of care in the hospital nursery. This is the norm from my experience. I’ve missed funerals, struggled to plan my wedding as I couldn’t get my rota that far in advance to ensure I had time off. This doesn’t even cover my conditions during my actual working hours short staffed, no breaks etc.

Ive been told to leave if I don’t like the conditions. We already are and even if you increase training places etc. you won’t be able to plug the gap quickly. As a society we seem to say well it was worse for me in my job etc. so suck it up. As I said it isn’t a race to the bottom, we should be striving for better for everyone, no dragging everyone down.

I stay in the profession as I care for my patients, there are days I really enjoy my job and I feel like I make a difference. Unfortunately those days are becoming less frequent due to the conditions.

Full disclosure I am not striking as I don’t agree with the 72 hour strike of full withdraw of care but I do support my striking colleagues.

Show quote history

I have huge sympathy with how difficult it is but I don't think there is any wage packet that could fix the problems you're describing. They're problems inherent in the NHS and our childcare system that need to be addressed by the government, not problems to do with not being paid enough.

With respect, each time you're training and moving, you're being invested in and starting out in a new role that you're able to contribute very little to at the start. Any nurse knows when to avoid having an operation as things can be chaos while the junior doctors learn the ropes. In the period of your job progression they you're describing, if you were wanting to be a GP, you would have to sign decisions off with another doctor and ask their advice frequently. This is training, not just working. More experienced doctors are doing their job in training you but it makes sense that they are paid much more.

KnittedCardi · 13/03/2023 09:18

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:10

NHS consultants earn a max of 120k a year. It's hardly tech company levels.

Show quote history

Yes but an awful lot do private work on top. All the specialists I have seen privately are also NHS consultants. Most of my GP practice is part time, and the rest of the week they do private too.

Cloudhoppingdancer · 13/03/2023 09:19

medicmumma · 13/03/2023 09:17

Because the intelligence, qualifications and dedication needed to be a doctor, as well as the responsibility far outweighs that of being a teacher and a barrister. Both are important jobs in society but do not compare to being responsible for peoples lives.

And with regards to investment banking - they work incredibly hard and yes while their pay per hour is low (not as low as doctors) they have a good gross pay + many other benefits (paid work trips abroad, able to expense meals/travel, an actual desk to work on rather than a bin next to a computer...)

Not necessarily at all.

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:20

KnittedCardi · 13/03/2023 09:18

Yes but an awful lot do private work on top. All the specialists I have seen privately are also NHS consultants. Most of my GP practice is part time, and the rest of the week they do private too.

Show quote history

Yes, that's fair enough isn't it - not tax payers money?

Sirzy · 13/03/2023 09:20

KnittedCardi · 13/03/2023 09:18

Yes but an awful lot do private work on top. All the specialists I have seen privately are also NHS consultants. Most of my GP practice is part time, and the rest of the week they do private too.

Show quote history

But if they were properly paid for the nhs work, and had better working conditions then they wouldn’t need to do private practise.

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:21

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:17

Don't be ridiculous. That's after almost 20 years of making life and death decisions for the benefit of ungrateful people like you. Personally you couldn't pay me enough to have to deal with the whinging, entitled British public.

Show quote history

Personally you couldn't pay me enough to have to deal with the whinging, entitled British public.

So why are you on a british public forum then? complaining about a 120K per year salary.

Bye bye.

medicmumma · 13/03/2023 09:26

£100k is not silly money when you factor in 5/6 years for medical school, multiple degrees + exams (that we pay for - I don't get where this myth comes from that the 'taxpayer' pays), spending our free time doing extra projects/publications (for free!) and literally being responsible for peoples' lives (remember that next time your child gets sick).

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:26

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:21

Personally you couldn't pay me enough to have to deal with the whinging, entitled British public.

So why are you on a british public forum then? complaining about a 120K per year salary.

Bye bye.

Show quote history

What a strange comment. We are hugely chippy as a nation as this thread proves. Until some of the posters here actually get seriously ill, when I'm sure they'll take full advantage of their free health care and be pathetically grateful for the education and training of their doctor.

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:29

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:26

What a strange comment. We are hugely chippy as a nation as this thread proves. Until some of the posters here actually get seriously ill, when I'm sure they'll take full advantage of their free health care and be pathetically grateful for the education and training of their doctor.

Show quote history

Back at you what a strange comment when was the NHS free?
Where do you think the taxes come from to pay for it.

Designhelp · 13/03/2023 09:30

Regardless of how you feel medicine is an important vocation.
The UK needs to attract the best people to the profession and respect that comparable with other similar countries like the US/Australia.
The BMA is a powerful organisation.
Consultants will be next.

olympicsrock · 13/03/2023 09:30

I was a junior doctor 18 months ago - doing life and limb threatening surgery unsupervised. I was paid £48K per year - paying extra rent £600 plus £320 petrol plus £1000 childcare per month to live away Monday to Friday .This was on top of a mortgage.

Expected to sleep on thin plastic mattresses, often have no breaks on shift and sit on a bin during handover meetings because who cares if a doctor has a chair or not…

Caught covid in 2020 because of a shortage of masks.

Doctors need to be paid and treated properly.

Chippy1234 · 13/03/2023 09:31

They are making themselves look daft and foolish. Medicine is a difficult profession to get into initially. Why are are so many people applying if they could earn the same working at Pret - oh no wait.....

No one believes it and whomever agreed to release this statement needs their intelligence measured!

Chippy1234 · 13/03/2023 09:32

Even a Junior Doctor is saying they were paid £48k....

Salverus · 13/03/2023 09:33

Lookwhostalking99 · 13/03/2023 09:29

Back at you what a strange comment when was the NHS free?
Where do you think the taxes come from to pay for it.

Show quote history

It's free at the point of use which I'm sure you can get your head round if you have a good old think about it.

olympicsrock · 13/03/2023 09:33

Most consultants don’t do private practice by the way. We are too tired!
And yes the consultants will strike next. We can’t afford to fill the rota gaps in our service as the pension taxes make it cost us to do extra shifts.

Designhelp · 13/03/2023 09:34

Chippy its not all about the pay, its the working conditions worsening because many are leaving. Even those who have completed the process in competitive specialties often to other countries or a whole new industry like pharma. Medicine will always be oversubscribed the problem is retention. The big fat consultant salary (and by the way consultants are also balloting) is clearly nor enough to convince all to stay.

Househare · 13/03/2023 09:35

Cloudhoppingdancer · 13/03/2023 08:57

The problem is, doctors at this level are still very junior. They're being trained in different areas and don't know very much. A lot of what they're doing is really just an apprenticeship and has to be supervised or checked by someone else. Or it should be! They're not always working so much as learning, but decision making so much as being trained to think through the decision making process.

When they can do more advanced medical care they are paid much more.

The guy at Pret is an experience, dedicated employee on that money and he's gone as far as he can go.

High flying professionals have a long way to go after graduating and huge amounts of time and money still have to be put into them by the government to turn them into a doctor that you can release into a specialty.

How is carrying the bleep (meaning first on the scene when a patient goes into cardiac arrest) on a par with getting the perfect cappuccino? How can you even compare. Your ignorance is astounding. You have one heck of a chip on your shoulder. The dim one in a family of medics is it?