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To wonder what part of this statement reminded Gary L of Nazi Germany?

1000 replies

marmaladeo · 11/03/2023 16:55

This is Suella Braverman's statement Gary Lineker was reacting to when he said "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s" ... twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1633094764865126400

If she was saying she wanted to stop immigration I could understand GL's reaction. But she's not. I don't understand why anyone would not want to "stop the boats" when 1. they're lethal and 2. they're being run by criminal gangs. If GL had made it clear he wanted to stop the boats but thought this policy was the wrong way to do it, then fine. But he didn't - he just made an extremely inflammatory statement. He might be getting lots of love from some quarters, but personally I think he's an egotist who is playing into the hands of the people smugglers.

OP posts:
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FurAndFeathers · 11/03/2023 18:14

marmaladeo · 11/03/2023 17:14

I posted the link to the video Gary Lineker was reacting to - I don't have a transcript of it.I know its a Twitter link, but you don't need an account to watch it and it's very short.

In case it helps, this is a transcript of her fuller statement to the House of Commons, which uses the same language: www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretary-statement-on-the-illegal-immigration-bill

@marmaladeo I’ve commented on the speech below. Hopefully it helps

He [the prime minister] said anyone entering this country illegally, will be detained and swiftly removed. No half measures.

Because detaining and removing people with legal representation or due process breaks all human rights and refugee resettlement conventions - it’s basically illegal

The Illegal Migration Bill will fulfil that promise.

There’s no such thing as illegal migration. It’s ludicrous to expect people who are trafficked or fleeing war to have visas and paperwork. These are refugees and protected by international law

It will allow us to stop the boats that are bringing tens of thousands to our shores in flagrant breach of both our laws and the will of the British people.

Nazis used terms like ‘swarm’ and invasion and called anyone who challenged their rhetoric unpatriotic. The language used here evokes very similar imagery.

The United Kingdom must always support the world’s most vulnerable. Since 2015 we’ve given sanctuary to nearly half a million people through family resettlement and global safe and legal routes. These include 150,000 people from Hong Kong escaping autocracy, 160,000 Ukrainians fleeing Putin’s war, and 25,000 Afghans fleeing the Taliban. Indeed my own parents did, decades ago found security and opportunity in this country, something for which my family is eternally grateful.

Half a million people in nearly 8 years is a laughably small number. Braverman’s personal history is being used as a manipulation tactic - she’s suggesting she can’t possibly be ‘anti immigration as the child of immigrant’

Crucially, these are decisions supported by the British people precisely because they were decisions made by the British people, through their elected representatives - not by the people smugglers and other criminals breaking into Britain daily.

Translation - you voted in a Tory government so we can do what we like and assume you support it because you elected us in. Dissent means you’re aligned with smugglers and criminals

The small boats problem is part of a larger global migration crisis.
In the coming years, developed countries will face unprecedented pressures levels from ever greater numbers of people leaving the developing world for places like the UK.
Unless we act today, the problem will be worse tomorrow. And the problem is already unsustainable.

Actually we have significantly fewer migrants entering the UK than 20 years ago, but why let data stand in the way of fear-mongering to generate antipathy towards a vulnerable group.

People are dying in the Channel. The volume of illegal arrivals has overwhelmed our asylum system.
The backlog has ballooned to over 160,000.

Primarily due to people trafficking and the reduction in asylum application processing - this legislation does nothing to address either of those issues (and contravenes international human rights law)

The asylum system now costs the British taxpayer £3 billion a year. Since 2018, some 85,000 people illegally entered the UK by small boat - 45,000 of them in 2022 alone. All travelled through multiple safe countries in which they could and should have claimed asylum. Many came from safe countries, like Albania. Almost all passed through France.

More scaremongering and a deliberate misrepresentation of international law. There’s no requirement for a refugee to stay in the first safe country - if there was then we could only accept French or Irish refugees which would mean we’d contribute nothing to the global refugee crisis, and all of the world’s Syrian, Iraqis and Afghan refugees entering Europe would have to stay in Turkey - clearly unsustainable and ludicrous.

The vast majority – 74% in 2021 – were adult males under the age of 40, rich enough to pay criminal gangs thousands of pounds for passage.

Of course they were. If you can only afford a single passage then it’s sensible the man makes the dangerous journey first - would any mothers reading this genuinely go to seek asylum in another country leaving their children behind? Or send a single child alone? Doubtful. But what is a sensible practical decision made in extremis is being used to imply that healthy men seeking safety, work and a life for their families is sinister. It’s more rhetoric aimed at inciting hatred for a vulnerable group.

Upon arrival, most are accommodated in hotels across the country, costing the British taxpayer around £6 million a day.The risk remains that these individuals just disappear.
And when we try to remove them, they turn our generous asylum laws against us to prevent removal.

Yes they need to be housed whilst their cases are assessed. Asylum accommodation is often dangerous, it’s not something most people will choose. There are documented cases of people traffickers abducting vulnerable migrants from government accommodation. So yes they may just disappear - due to the inadequate services provided by the Tory government.

People arriving in boats can only use our laws if they have a legal case to apply them to. Surely this is the purpose of having laws? Instead, the Home Secretary is literally suggesting that we remove any legal process or protection for asylum claims and just deport people who arrive in boats regardless of their refugee or human trafficking status.

ThisNameIsNotAvailable · 11/03/2023 18:15

MrsandProud · 11/03/2023 18:02

What these groups think is irrelevant frankly. Their mere existence is dependent on injustice being perpetuated so...

I’m not following you. What groups are you talking about? Human Rights Watch? The non profit NGO which was set up decades ago to research and advocate for those who experience human rights abuses? Are you suggesting that we ignore what they have found because they have a vested interest in the subject? Maybe we should also ignore NICE, NSPCC, Shelter etc because they have a vested interest in their subject matter? In fact, why not ignore anyone with a detailed understanding of a situation because they have an interest in the situation being perpetuated and rely on Bob and Maureen from number 57.

Or are you talking about all the individuals who have learned about and are horrified by the treatment of people under the auspices of immigration control? Are they equally as irrelevant?

Or maybe there is an unpleasant side to this ‘successful’ immigration control which is difficult to stomach when people are actually faced with it.

jgw1 · 11/03/2023 18:15

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:12

'It is not illegal to cross the channel, I have done it several times.'

Without a passport?

You do know people smuggling and trafficking is illegal? Illegal is a legal word, it is not an insult.

Then why are you using illegal as an insult?

And since it is a legal word, please can you use it correctly.

Asylum seekers can seek asylum in any safe country and can arrive in that country in anyway they choose, with or without documents.

It is all explained in this short video, please watch it.

twitter.com/crimlawuk/status/1634330359839031301

Why are you trying so hard to prove Lineker's point for him?

HannibalHeyes · 11/03/2023 18:15

WorldCuppa · 11/03/2023 18:11

@HannibalHeyes
Any sources for those (untrue) stats?

My numbers were from a previous year, but just from 2022 it's 75% granted straight away, without mentioning those granted on appeal...

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:15

'If he was racist and othering towards Jewish people in what he said, how come there are Jewish people backing him (and yes I know there are Jewish people who aren't backing him too)?'

Because Jews are individuals, they all have their own opinions. Many have voiced their disgust at this celeb trying to suggest addressing illegal people trafficking is any way shape or form similar to the 'language used in 1930s Germany'.

Purplehyena · 11/03/2023 18:15

He didn’t call anyone a Nazi, or said they were that the bill is like the holocaust, he really really didn’t. He stated that the language being used was like the language used in the 1930s. Agree or disagree if you like, but objectively you can absolutely draw parallels linguistically. His presenting work should not preclude him from expressing a perfectly legitimate concern. The fact that the response from those that disagree with him is to demand censorship, rather than arguing their case speaks volumes.

But, it’s merely a side show being used by the government to distract from its cruel, illegal and ineffective ‘policy’, and sadly it’s working. If ‘all they want to do is stop the boats’ (which is what most people want) they could set up safe, compassionate and fair routes, which our European neighbours have offered to support with. Sadly they don’t want that, they know they can’t fight the next election on their domestic record so stirring up anti immigrant and anti Europe sentiment is their only hope, just as they’ve done over the years. It’s pretty depressing to see that it’s working for some.

Iam4eels · 11/03/2023 18:15

Around 75% of asylum seekers are given protection as a result of their initial application. Of those who appeal around 49% win at first appeal. These figures are easily available from various agencies on Google.

The same people bashing SB are the ones complaining about food shortages, the state of the NHS, lack of places in schools, pollution, etc

A list of problems also caused by the current government, their chronic underfunding of public services, absolute shambles of future planning, and so on.

FurAndFeathers · 11/03/2023 18:16

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:03

'As soon as they reopen legal routes, these "illegal" crossings would dwindle to nothing!'

There are legal routes. Just queue jumping via illegal gangs and their dinghies should be tolerated or encouraged.

What are the legal routes for asylum seekers to reach the UK?

HannibalHeyes · 11/03/2023 18:16

And it's funny how the shills never volunteer evidence for their lies.

I guess because they are lies they know they wouldn't be able to...

EngTech · 11/03/2023 18:16

GL is fully entitled to express his personal thoughts and opinions, as is his right

However, he is a high profile person on the BBC and the BBC has to be seen that it is impartial, it has exploded out of all proportion now but we live in a democracy

HMRC are in discussion with him about his actual job status, which in due course will be sorted

All I will say is that people were trying to get out of Germany in the 30’s and the horror of the Holocaust had not fully begun 😔

Illegal refugees who arrive here, are given shelter and food, very subtle difference IMHO

ChilliBandit · 11/03/2023 18:17

Tory supporters are more offended by the Tory party’s behaviour being compared to Nazis than they are concerned by the actual far right behaviour of the Tory party. The Nazis was the name for the fascists in Germany. The Tory party are bordering on fascist now. It’s a fair comparison. The people coming over on boats are human beings. The language used to other them is part of the plan to make the government’s inhumane treatment of these people more palatable. Seems pretty similar to me. The fact they aren’t already living here doesn’t make them less as people and the fact some people are highlighting that as a difference between now and 1930s Germany shows me the government propaganda is working and they already view the people crossing the channel as lesser.

jgw1 · 11/03/2023 18:18

Purplehyena · 11/03/2023 18:15

He didn’t call anyone a Nazi, or said they were that the bill is like the holocaust, he really really didn’t. He stated that the language being used was like the language used in the 1930s. Agree or disagree if you like, but objectively you can absolutely draw parallels linguistically. His presenting work should not preclude him from expressing a perfectly legitimate concern. The fact that the response from those that disagree with him is to demand censorship, rather than arguing their case speaks volumes.

But, it’s merely a side show being used by the government to distract from its cruel, illegal and ineffective ‘policy’, and sadly it’s working. If ‘all they want to do is stop the boats’ (which is what most people want) they could set up safe, compassionate and fair routes, which our European neighbours have offered to support with. Sadly they don’t want that, they know they can’t fight the next election on their domestic record so stirring up anti immigrant and anti Europe sentiment is their only hope, just as they’ve done over the years. It’s pretty depressing to see that it’s working for some.

I don't think it is working.

I think it may work to excite some of their dwindling number of remaining supporters, but it is disgusting I am sure a far larger proportion of the UK population.

SnappyTheCrocodile · 11/03/2023 18:18

C8H10N4O2 · 11/03/2023 17:19

Its exactly the style of othering, dehumanising language used by authoritarian regimes through history. 1930s Germany absolutely used this kind of language as it built up hate for an "othered" group as part of campaigning which led to the Nazi regime. Its a valid comparison.

This x100.

It’s all ‘they’ ‘them’. Subtly (not so subtly) taking away the humanity of these people.

IClaudine · 11/03/2023 18:18

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:15

'If he was racist and othering towards Jewish people in what he said, how come there are Jewish people backing him (and yes I know there are Jewish people who aren't backing him too)?'

Because Jews are individuals, they all have their own opinions. Many have voiced their disgust at this celeb trying to suggest addressing illegal people trafficking is any way shape or form similar to the 'language used in 1930s Germany'.

Right. So it if fair to say that he wasn't being racist and othering then. Good.

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:19

Fuctifin0 · 11/03/2023 18:14

He is a prat with an immense ego.
Hoping he will never darken our screens again.
Why he thinks anybody wants to hear the inner ramblings of his brain cell is beyond me.

Yes looking on the bright side BBC may put something better on the telly. Fingers crossed.

Maybe we'll see Lineker Wrighty and Shearer on next year's IACGMOOH or DOI.

FurAndFeathers · 11/03/2023 18:20

TheSnugglyDuckling · 11/03/2023 17:33

Jews weren’t immigrants in Nazi Germany they were bloody citizens and it is unbelievably racist and othering - towards Jews - to suggest there are any similarities between people coming over illegally for economic reasons and Jewish citizens of Europe who were murdered simply for being Jews.

Agree entirely. But I’ve not seen anyone make that comparison?

ChilliBandit · 11/03/2023 18:20

If the government really cared about stopping the boats they would put safe and legal routes in place. There would be no market for the boats then. The government doesn’t give a shit about the welfare of the people on those boats.

jgw1 · 11/03/2023 18:21

EngTech · 11/03/2023 18:16

GL is fully entitled to express his personal thoughts and opinions, as is his right

However, he is a high profile person on the BBC and the BBC has to be seen that it is impartial, it has exploded out of all proportion now but we live in a democracy

HMRC are in discussion with him about his actual job status, which in due course will be sorted

All I will say is that people were trying to get out of Germany in the 30’s and the horror of the Holocaust had not fully begun 😔

Illegal refugees who arrive here, are given shelter and food, very subtle difference IMHO

Why the insistence all calling the perfectly legal behaviour of refugees illegal?

The law is quite clear on the matter asylum seekers have the absolute right to claim asylum in any country they deem safe and to travel to that country in any way they can with or without documentation.

Please watch this video to understand the law more.

twitter.com/crimlawuk/status/1634330359839031301

Why the insistence on trying to prove the point that Lineker was making?

FurAndFeathers · 11/03/2023 18:22

Fuctifin0 · 11/03/2023 18:14

He is a prat with an immense ego.
Hoping he will never darken our screens again.
Why he thinks anybody wants to hear the inner ramblings of his brain cell is beyond me.

And yet we’re all doing exactly what he did - posting on SM. So why is it ok for you to use SM to express your opinion but not him?

seems a bit hypocritical

IClaudine · 11/03/2023 18:22

FurAndFeathers · 11/03/2023 18:20

Agree entirely. But I’ve not seen anyone make that comparison?

Apparently it is racist and othering to urge caution over the use of language. Jenrick better watch out then. Sadly he seems to have lost his balls since last November.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/robert-jenrick-suella-braverman-government-england-home-office-b2214913.html

GPTec1 · 11/03/2023 18:24

marmaladeo · 11/03/2023 17:23

See, this is the sort of dumb response that makes me think the reaction is mostly just people who already hated the tories jumping in on an opportunity to misrepresent a controversial policy. How about a bit of objectivity?

Lineker was tweeting what a holocaust survivor her self asked Braverman.

www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/suella-braverman-holocaust-invasion-refugees-b2262509.html

I don't know if Braverman is far right, she certainly right wing but she stinks of hypocrisy, parents were economic immigrants and she made sure she studied in Paris under the EU's Erasmus scheme before making sure no one else, in UK could.

Lilifer · 11/03/2023 18:25

"It’s all ‘they’ ‘them’. Subtly (not so subtly) taking away the humanity of these people."

Or just using the plural pronoun maybe?🤔

Flounder2022 · 11/03/2023 18:26

NotWaterproof · 11/03/2023 17:26

The long term issue, is that we are small countries in Europe compared to the USA, with limited infrastructure. We aren't self sufficient in food in the UK for those already here.

Ireland is much smaller, with a population not as large and their infrastructure can't cope either, the poor people there aren't happy with their situation, it's not a UK exclusive issue.

Countries like Africa are much bigger than depicted on maps. There will be lots more migration for various reasons in the future.

The poor in our country are basically funding rich people in poor countries as well as the state in our own country.

The problems in Ireland are not because of immigrants, refugees or asylum seekers. Yes, we are in a major housing crisis and we have similar COL issues but the majority here understand the causes of that lie in failures of government policy. That is what the majority of the 'poor' -and everyone else- is not happy about.

Yes we have similar far right rhetoric being spouted, and yes some people are getting sucked in by it, but it is mostly coming from fringe right elements not central government (not that they don't have a million other faults!)

MrsandProud · 11/03/2023 18:26

Well every single economic study has stated that migration is of net economic benefit to the UK, coupled with the ageing population and extremely low birth rate I'd say that migration is not just desirable, but absolutely necessary

If controlled it can be beneficial, otherwise no

skippy67 · 11/03/2023 18:27

Rhondaa · 11/03/2023 18:19

Yes looking on the bright side BBC may put something better on the telly. Fingers crossed.

Maybe we'll see Lineker Wrighty and Shearer on next year's IACGMOOH or DOI.

He posted on Twitter. He's posted lots on twitter. The BBC don't like that what he posted this time disagrees with the Government. That's it. And Wrighty has already done I'm a celeb.

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