To wonder what part of this statement reminded Gary L of Nazi Germany?

[marmaladeo]

This is Suella Braverman's statement Gary Lineker was reacting to when he said "This is just an immeasurably cruel policy directed at the most vulnerable people in language that is not dissimilar to that used by Germany in the 30s" ... twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1633094764865126400

If she was saying she wanted to stop immigration I could understand GL's reaction. But she's not. I don't understand why anyone would not want to "stop the boats" when 1. they're lethal and 2. they're being run by criminal gangs. If GL had made it clear he wanted to stop the boats but thought this policy was the wrong way to do it, then fine. But he didn't - he just made an extremely inflammatory statement. He might be getting lots of love from some quarters, but personally I think he's an egotist who is playing into the hands of the people smugglers.

"I lived in Australia when they introduced a similar policy. It was also controversial, but it stopped (most of) the boats"

The same Australia where horrific human rights violations towards refugees on pacific islands were routinely being covered up?

Iam4eels I'm Jewish and I totally agree with you.

As an aside, I'm getting sick of non-Jews on threads like this telling me what to think too!

Lineker didn't use the word Nazi in his tweet. He referred to a climate of manipulation and othering that eventually paved the way for Nazi power and the Shoah. If you read the full speech and the Daily Mail mood music there are similarities.

From a thread discussing the system employed by Australia and subsequent report.

"If I may offer some clarification, as one of the authors of that report, on where the confusion lies: government data shows that offshore processing (that is, the Australian version of the Rwanda proposal) had absolutely no impact on boat arrivals;"

twitter.com/madelinegleeson/status/1632719992885223426?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

Contrary to popular belief, offshore processing did not stop the boats. Relying on the government’s own data, the authors show that both boat arrivals and deaths at sea continued after the reintroduction of offshore processing in 2012, dropping only after Australia recognised the limitations of its own policy and pivoted away from it to pursue maritime interceptions exclusively from 2014 onwards.
Rather than save lives, offshore processing ruined them; the authors note cases of murder, suicide and sexual assault, as well as a devastating deterioration in physical and mental health, separated families and traumatised children. ‘Those who survived were exposed to significant harm, which some described as worse than death,’ the authors write. As further evidence of the policy’s failure, the vast majority of the people still subject to it are now back in Australia, many having been urgently evacuated amid spiralling health crises.

www.kaldorcentre.unsw.edu.au/news/cruel-costly-and-ineffective-failure-offshore-processing-australia

*Ok - how many are you saying yes to?

Is it everyone who applies and meets the criteria or once a number, say 50k just to make it easier, is reached is the next person an automatic no?*

Well everyone who meets the criteria has to go somewhere, unless you deny that asylum should exist as a concept. I would be happy for the UK to take more asylum seekers - the responsibility for refugees is supposed to be shared and we are not taking anything like our share compared to other countries.

I think the UK should be working with other countries to work out sensible policy and help relieve the pressure on places like Turkiye, Colombia, Pakistan, Uganda and other neighbouring countries who bear the brunt of this problem whilst often being in a poorer position to do so.

I think that refugees are the responsibility of everyone including me and therefore I am happy for my taxes to help these people.

I would like to see asylum seekers processed quickly, becoming useful (tax paying) members of society instead of being kept in hotels at vast expense, unable to work and vulnerable to exploitation.

(In general I understand that immigration is a net benefit to our economy and therefore I would like more of it, especially given our declining birth rate, the current labour shortage and the inability of various industries to cope without it, especially the NHS.

I would also like the government to re-prioritise their spending choices, with less support for the rich and more support for the basic infrastructure of society like education, health and social care, policing, affordable energy and food. All of these are choices.)

Aaaand there goes the point, whizzing over your head. Wheeeee!

FurAndFeathers
Did she? Do you have a link please

“In 1943, I was forced to flee my birthplace in Belgium and went across war-torn Europe and dangerous seas until I finally was able to come to the UK in 1947.
“When I hear you using words against refugees like ‘swarms’ and an ‘invasion’, I am reminded of the language used to dehumanise and justify the murder of my family and millions of others ...

Braverman has not used the word “swarm” on record, but it has been used by prominent politicians including former prime minister David Cameron and former UK Independence Party (Ukip) leader Nigel Farage.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/14/suella-braverman-wont-apologise-to-holocaust-survivor-for-calling-migrants-invasion

do you think that means she doesn’t fundamentally have a point then?

No I don't - Ms Salter refers to the 'murder' of her family and millions of others.
We watched The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas on BBC Two only last week - words to justify murder included 'evil' and 'vermin' for example.

Population density of Turkey 110 per sq km yet the UK is 281 per sq km.

jgw1 - I'm sure you won't be happy until we are all living like battery hens.

RotundBeagle you should be ashamed of that post.

It's not the swarms in boats creating the waiting fingers is it. Because even if every single of the 48000 people who came on small boats last year needed NHS care that would only be 1.6 % of the waiting list. We have an unhealthy and aging population and we haven't planned for it. We have a small (0.2 to 0.4) population increase. It would be manageable if we collectively choose to focus on it

@RotundBeagle Just - mistakenly - read this whole thread and your posts and language really stand out for being wholly inflammatory and outright racist. You seem hell-bent on inciting hatred towards Muslims. I wonder if you would dare make these arguments elsewhere without protection of anonymity. Take a step back. You're disgusting.

The majority are Muslim men from Muslim countries so my point still stands. Allowing these men to enter with no vetting or control of numbers does not bode well for our society.

So if you want to support women, support safe routes and resettlement where vetting and checks happen before anyone arrives in England.

And your racist rhetoric may be “normal” in the online spaces you spend time in, but I don’t think you realise how disgusting anything you’re saying is. Accusing a whole race/religion of people of being rapists is fucking disgusting. That’s not normal.

Tell me again that “GC” spaces aren’t infiltrated by the far right. Fucking gross.

We have an unhealthy and aging population and we haven't planned for it.

Bingo.

Hettie - Net migration to the UK last year was 504,000 an increase of 331,000 from the previous year 2021. That's without the 48,000 people coming in small boats. That is not sustainable.

Bearing in mind there are now 8 billion humans on the planet how many immigrants do people want allowed to arrive in the UK?

1 million, 10 million, 100 million?

I think it's just the illiterates.

The number isn’t so important but whatever the number is the next person outside it is still desperate, that hasn’t changed.

People moving from harsh situations isn’t something that always matches safe route numbers. I’d say can’t match it tbh especially in next decades

With decent maths we should be able to.

We've taken far more numbers of Afghan and Ukrainian refugees and people from Hong Kong.

And considering over 70% of those arriving via small boats are granted asylum (and those that aren't are not entitled) I think there is likely not many more than we can and will process who want to come here.

Plus there's the question of the whole of Europe. If people want processing in another European country and can get approval they won't need to move onto the UK to get asylum.

It's not simple but we need a far better process and better alternatives to stop people wanting to risk their lives in the channel and the smugglers having an audience it's worth continuing the practice for.

Once the fuss dies down we can go back to more important issues like British men having their legs too far apart when sitting on the tube. 😂

Because that is the biggest problem. Not 2 women a week killed, eh.
Some muslims are bad, some, the ones I am surrounded are, are great. Same like some british man are bad and some are great. I actually got more respect from immigrants from muslim countries overal than from local man.

Every time someone bitches about middle east (like football or holiday threads) and how women are secondary citizens, I try to to figure out how we are not here. Well at least my immigrant female arse.

This image of perfection is also part of the overal rhetoric "we are much better and civilsed than THEM" (the them depends on who is hated on the particular day).

Hettie - Net migration to the UK last year was 504,000 an increase of 331,000 from the previous year 2021. That's without the 48,000 people coming in small boats. That is not sustainable.

It doesn't need to be sustainable because it was a particular set of circumstances that led to the rise in 2022. This is not a new normal.

For a start, almost half of the increase was due to people from Ukraine and Hong Kong, unlikely to be repeated.

Most of the rest is down to the UK's strategy around attracting skilled workers and increasing numbers of international students. Ie we needed them and deliberately encouraged them to come.

That's a lot of people.
There is going to be people whose lands are devastated by climate change.
Who are going to suffer because they can't get food from countries like Ukraine because they can't afford the grain?

Who live in countries where they face persecution because the Government see minorities as "other" and take steps to persecute them, commit awful crimes against them?

People who are persecuted because they are LGBT, belong to the wrong religious group, who are women and who are treated horrendously because of that/

People who are fleeing war and conflict.

It's a really really tough situation.

As said upthread, Turkie has 3.6 million refugees.

There are 80 million displaced people in the world. And no doubt that will increase.

We are lucky to live in country that is peaceful, where there is little Government authorised persecution, where we can get food.

Are we doing our bit or could we do more?

What responsibility do we have for other people in the world? Or do we not cross the road?

2022 was an exceptional year for obvious reasons. Around 160,000, so nearly half of the "jump", were Ukranians. Do you have a source for figure for 2021? I can't seem to find it for some reason.

www.statista.com/statistics/1312584/ukrainian-refugees-by-country/

In 2022 there will also have been a big increase in the number of overseas university students coming to the UK compared to 2021 with the ending of covid restrictions. Is that included in the figures?

May migration in a year doesn'tt give you data about overall population increase because as @SoTedious points out you get blips (for all sorts of reasons). Overall population growth in the UK has been fairly unremarkable. The world Bank has lots of data on lots of things here datacommons.org/place/country/GBR?utm_medium=explore&mprop=count&popt=Person&hl=en you have to nearly to the end to see the graph on population growth.
So no I don't think it's unsustainable or that we are full or will run out of room or have to build over the countryside (only 11% of the UK is 'built up'). We choose to funnel our limited resources not into more Gp's or school places or social care, or transport or water infrastructure so everyone feels they are getting less (they probably are). But let's be clear they are not getting less because of a tiny number of asylum seekers, despite best efforts to up the rhetoric and divert attention (which I think what this is actually about).

Found this:

Estimates from the Office of National Statistics suggest that total net migration was 504,000 in the year ending June 2022. This was substantially above pre-pandemic estimates of between 300,000 and 400,000 (depending on which measure is used)

The increase in overall net migration was driven by non-EU migration. Non-EU migration to the UK increased during the 2010s but rose particularly sharply after the pandemic. Meanwhile, EU net migration fell from 2016 onwards and remained low in the early 2020s (Figure 3).

Visa data give a more detailed picture of the reasons for non-EU migration patterns. Visa data overstate long-term immigration because not all people who receive visas actually move to the UK, and many come for just a few weeks or months and are not long-term migrants. Nonetheless, they provide an accurate indication of overall trends over time and show that three main factors drove recent increases in non-EU migration (F

“Bespoke humanitarian routes”. The largest single factor explaining the increase in visas granted to non-EU citizens from 2019 to the year ending June 2022 was the introduction of visa routes for Ukrainians and Hong Kong British Nationals (Overseas) status holders. Together these two routes contributed 45% of the 467,000 increase during this period (excluding visitors and short-term study). These routes are part of the ‘other’ category in Figure 6.

International students accounted for a further 39% of the increase. The UK has an explicit strategy of increasing and diversifying foreign student recruitment, and it is also plausible that the reintroduction of post-study work rights post-Brexit has made the UK more attractive to international students.

Skilled workers: 23% of the increase in visa grants from 2019 to the year ending June 2022 resulted from work visas—particularly skilled workers. Health and care was the main industry driving the growth. The increase in skilled workers is not solely the result of the post-Brexit immigration system, but also higher demand for workers who were already eligible for visas under the old system, such as doctors and nurses.