To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

What exactly is this supposed training cost paying for? Can you itemise that?

Doctors are greedy.

The calculations of how much it costs to train doctors are often distorted; I read an analysis once that pointed out that the costs of "training" often include the salaries of "junior" doctors who are still in training while they are also working.

I have also seen figures that suggest routine consultant salaries in Ireland are at least double the equivalent in the UK at present. I know the systems are slightly different but it points up just how close the options for someone willing to leave UK medicine can be.

How much does the rest of their training cost? Seen some over inflated figures the papers like to band about, but they have never been able to break it down. Trusts are paid to have students, students essentially pay to go on placement- and whilst of course they're supernumerary and do get supported they also do add value to the settings their placements are in. Curious where the thousands and thousands of pounds is actually being generated.

They have one of the best pensions schemes so much so that they are more worried about paying tax for the life time allowance

That's not true . Salaries in academia are significantly lower for non medically trained people. Medics in academia stay on the NHS salary scale so get the same as their clinical equivalents. At very senior levels it is more open to negotiation but that is a tiny minority and they will always be on more than non medics.

Doctors also get various extra payments for working nights, weekends, doing death certificates, other things, that make the amount they earn higher than the quoted rates.

Yes without the binmen and sewage workers the doctors wouldn't be able to cope with the level of disease we'd be faced with.

You could train for a similar length of time to become a criminal barrister... that way you could be paid as much as minimum wage two years in arrears. If you are lucky.

Well said, @TedMullins, I agree with every word. How we have managed to sleepwalk into a position where the gap between the richest and the majority is widening, after a brief period post WW2 where it got smaller, is beyond me. Social mobility is going backwards. Tax is easy to avoid and there is no shame heaped on those who avoid it, quite the contrary, so public spending is squeezed. Childcare, heating, food and housing are so expensive that most families are struggling to make ends meet. Instead of saying 'Well, you're still earning more than me' or 'What makes you think you're so special?' or 'My job is tough and important too!' why aren't we uniting to say the way our country is currently run isn't good enough and it needs to change asap!

You think a year at medical school costs £9000, the same as a history degree?

The total cost of training a doctor to junior doctor stage was reported as £230k in 2017, some of which is funded by them.

i did know
it is very hard
and particularly hard without well off parents probably
some form of outside support

plus you have to move where your rotation itakes you,
run a car
have a relationship.

They can't train more as there aren't the professionals in post to support them not only on placement, but when they come to specialise. There'll just be a bottleneck which causes more to leave. Retention as always is overlooked when in all ways its preferable to address this than simply train more people. Same with midwifery, demand outstrips supply many times over but out of every 10 that start training one 1 will be working as a midwife in a few years. That's unsustainable even if you magically had placements and training places for thousands more a more.

I did 5 full time years at university and started on £16k rising only to £30k after 14 years. And I'm still paying off my student loan after 20 years.

Doesn't surprise me at all, but DH is a GP. He qualified 20 years ago, did house officer and SHO rotations before becoming a GP. His salary last year was £65,000.
He works 60 hour weeks 7-8 Mon-Thursday in practice and admin on Friday and Sunday evening. 15 years GP experience, trained in Woman's health, Obs and Gynae and Sexual health as post grad diplomas. Last year his car (old VW polo) was vandalised by disgruntled patients and our house egged. He's leaving the NHS at Easter to work overseas for £400,000 a year.

Wow!

Yes I find that salary shocking for what is essentially the responsibility of life and death.

Terrible.

But how does paying junior doctors more make them stay? You still have problems with being overworked and overwhelmed. Pay is not the answer to your problems.

I agree. Doctors and Allied Health Professionals don't get paid enough.
I'm a Scientist in the NHS, band 6, 35k.
I have to do a masters before I can apply for a band 7 role, they don't come up often.
I have friends who did business degrees. Those people are now earning twice my wage per year. We studied for the same length of time, and have worked in our respective careers for the same number of years. Those friends don't go to work knowing that one mistake could cost someone their life. They don't work shifts etc. They didn't have to work for free for a year to complete a registration portfolio either!
You can see why it's becoming unappealing to study for a healthcare career.
There is no incentive.

I understand and sympathise with your point, but there are many people who leave university after the same amount of time and are much less well paid.

@CornishGem1975, at least, you won't be shocked when you need a doctor that there isn't one available.

and this why we have an extraordinary shortage of doctors

@Sockloon
you seem to think that the OP looks down at people with lower skilled jobs. This is not what the thread is about. Of course we need shop workers and bin men in order for society to function. Lower skilled jobs don't require as much training . Anyone could stack shelves or empty bins doesn't mean their job is not important but they are paid a reasonable amount. If you don't want to make any effort in school then don't take it out on junior doctors. Personally I agree with others saying it's the working conditions that have to change. But ultimately for junior doctors, the amount that they get paid, for the amount of work they do isn't fair. Although they have a high earning potential, we don't want them to leave for Australia as a junior doctor. Btw, I work for nhs 111 as a health advisor (not medically trained) and I earn less than a supermarket worker so this isn't me being snobby.

I think it’s shocking, I’m a teacher at the top of the pay scale and earn £47k, that’s more than many junior doctors. I find this utterly baffling.

Medical training is an undergraduate degree so the costs are mostly related to providing staff to teach them, university facilities, libraries, the same as any other degree.
Look at the fees for international students if you want to see what it would cost without taxpayer subsidy

YANBU about a starting salary. My friend earns more than that sto