To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

The question is, will people keep applying for medicine and continuing beyond the first years of their careers, to ensure we have the supply of Doctors we need?

People are applying to train in large numbers still, but lots of junior doctors drop out. That’s a huge waste of training and impacts the supply of doctors down the line.

They drop out because the conditions of work are so poor primarily, which feel worse in light of the pay they receive for the work they do.

It’s similar for teachers where many drop out before reaching 5 years and there is now a big shortage and schools can’t recruit.

The question isn’t do they get paid too much relative to their people. The question is whether the working conditions and pay will attract people to these occupations which are vital for us all. I’d say it’s the intolerable conditions that are the key because actually doctors and teachers usually want to do what they do. If people keep leaving, we won’t have enough healthcare or education for our children. Will we then see the link to the fact we said they shouldn’t have big pay rises, because other industries didn’t?

It’s about taking a longer term not a short term view. We probably need to pay more taxes to fund education and healthcare. Of course we don’t want to pay them. But the consequences of not doing so could mean more if us die in ambulances backed up to get into hospitals. Is that what we want?

Surely you can see the difference here? Bankers make millions for the economy and Drs are a loss maker for the most part. When you consider life and death yes it would appear you’d think it the more important job. However it takes more than one type of person to keep the world moving

But you're at the top of your pay scale and they're near the bottom of theirs.

Even at the top of the pay scale NHS salaried are rubbish given the level of responsibility doctors have. Some specialities can earn very well via private practice but some cannot.

I support the junior doctors strike but I am on the fence on this. A foundation year doctor is still very junior. In some respects they are more junior than some the more experienced nurses and allied professions. I think once doctors past the foundation stage and go into speciality training they should definitely be earning more. I think there needs to some re-structuring. Technically speaking a junior doctor is someone who is not a consultant however, there are lots doctors more experience and the term junior doctor does not quite capture their experiences. They are much more experienced that a foundation stage doctor. Perhaps they should introduce a banding system like nurses etc

Well yes of course, but a few posters on every thread like this exclaim that it costs absolutely loads to train a doctor, much more than other degrees- weirdly they never provide why this is.

Example of private work discrepancy: I know a cardiothoracic surgeon who wishes to specialise in cardiac and will therefore not get much private work, but I also know someone who went into psychiatry literally to open a private ADHD diagnosis clinic and he will rake it in.

Posts like your really puzzle me @Drstrike

As others have said, anyone who wants to be a doctor knows that the job entails- or ought to!

There are more applicants than places for medical school and a huge number of potential medics don't get a place.

So why is it, that after 5 years of training (when they could leave at any time if they feel differently about being a dr) are so many leaving the job so soon?

Are they not realistic about the NHS culture?
Do they pass exams (A levels and uni exams) but don't have the emotional resilience to do the job?

There appears to be a huge mismatch between the number of people wanting to be drs, and those who soon leave the UK/ NHS.

Yes, the money isn't great and yes, the NHS is in a mess. BUT anyone applying this year for medical school surely knows this?

Like many professions it's also a vocation. I bet people don't go into medicine to become rich. A few consultants do, if they also work privately, but most doctors won't get much above £100K, even as a GP.

I wonder if the whole selection process needs changing somehow.
The fact is that students decide on medicine at 18.
Are they ready to make that decision?
Are they mature enough?
Are they aware of the hard graft, poor-ish pay (at first) and the sheer hard work?

Yes, they can pass exams with several A*s and pass an interview, but something's amiss if they leave so fast.

theres A ceiling as to how much I’ll pay to get my rubbish taken away before I think I’ll just do it myself. Same for other services like gardening, cleaning, decorating etc. my ceiling for medical care is pretty high as I can’t really do that myself as I don’t have the skills. This is why people get paid different amounts of money! Personally I’d rather do without some of the highly paid actors/ sports professionals/ tv presenters and those living off inherited wealth etc who are providing very little benefit to me

The bottom of theirs isn’t £47k, although I think it should be!

Hasn't it always been like this? Like most other professions, a lot of grunt in the early years is rewarded in the later years. Presumably to sort out the wheat from the chaff. It is, after all, literally life or death.

This is a very patronising post that hits that classic gaslighting "are you just not resilient enough?" button.

Knowing academically what the conditions are like is not the same as experiencing them.

The 2 previous years' worth of graduates also had to work in a deadly pandemic that they couldn't possibly have predicted.

£51K seems a good salary for someone with 5 years experience. And they have NHS pension etc

This really sums up the problems we have with salaries and a person's perceived worth.
I'd be very worried if anyone who has got to any stage as a doctor doesn't recognise the worth of a local government worker.
Stop making these ridiculous comparisons and support everyone to be valued, respected and remunerated according.The teachers demanding pay rises should be on the picket line with the health workers and vice versa.

I think the pay is reasonable, although I think the NHS should look at and improve the conditions.

I'm a civil servant and I really don't understand why other public servants have such an issue about people saying that taxpayers pay our wages. They do. Of course I pay tax like everyone else but I am paid by the taxpayer.

Where do you get the money from to pay all all junior doctors an extra 18k year? By taxing binmen even more?

Doctors are not poor, even 29k a year is more than most people earn, and they go on to earn much more than that. If they want bankers wages, tell them to go and train as bankers instead of doctors. And then be prepared to compete to become a top banker.

No. Salaries haven’t moved in a long time. Entry level people in my industry are paid what I was 24 years ago.

It’s not ideal but doctors do well in the end. And the solution to the brain drain is better working conditions.

It's a good salary for a 9-5 job which needs a well-educated person, good communication and IT skills etc etc. For a job where you are literally making life and death decisions in the middle of the night with no colleagues to consult, I think it's too low.

I'm feeling very pro doctors at the moment as I have had excellent care at a major London teaching hospital in the last month, including an operation. The skill and commitment of the anaesthetists and surgeons was marvellous.

It will all be coming from private healthcare soon as there will be no NHS left.

My son has just been offered a place in September to study medicine I hope he makes it 🤞

Seems like everybody has got a sob story these days. I've never met a poor doctor. Their training costs a fortune. And it's only low pay,for a couple of years.

The amount paid in tax by the average citizen will not come close to covering the cost of their healthcare over their lifetime.

Doctors' wages are a drop in the ocean.

MRI scans, lifelong diabetes treatment, cancer treatment, maternity services, operations, occupational therapy equipment and physio, ambulance trips, inpatient admissions, free prescriptions. All for free. Yet people quibble over paying staff a fair wage.

I do wonder if before anyone is accepted for medicine, they ought to shadow someone in the profession for a year and delay applying until they are 19 or 20.

Because what comes over is they lack emotional resilience. Lack of realism about the job. Why else spend 5 years of your life studying for something then leave so fast? Pay scales are transparent.

It's a bit similar to teaching. I have many friends who went into teaching and some simply drifted into it, not knowing what else to do, either post-grad or studying for a BEd. Many gave up quite quickly.

Now, for a PGCE qualification, students do need to show evidence of time spent in schools before applying. I think maybe something like this should exist for medics (if it doesn't ) as it's waste of tax payers money if they just leave so soon after qualifying.

No one working full-time in any job should be dependent on benefits or charity to be able to afford decent housing, enough food, essential bills and some nice things for themselves and their dependents. That this isn't the case is a disgrace on our society.

After that, of course pay should reflect the required knowledge, skills and experience for the job, as well as the level of responsibility and working conditions.

I hope he changes his mind.