To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

Doesn’t shock me, you have to be mad to be a doctor and thank god some people are! All that stress for so little money and you know it’s going to be shit going into it. They need paying much more IMO and then maybe it will be worth it for more people?

I’m a “public servant”, must mean I pay my own wages. Think I’ll give myself a pay rise then!

Oh yes unskilled minions just sack them then, no point having them and pay your jr doctors more.

That salary will increase.
They also have significant opportunity to do private work to top up income.
The doctors in my family are hard working, determined, conscientious people. They are also quite rightly well paid for their work.

I think the working conditions need to be changed, rather than arguing for more money to compensate for the shitty working conditions

The pay doesn’t shock me at all. Everyone goes into it with eyes open, knowing that from their mid thirties the pay really takes off. It’s an investment of time.

However I agree with @Grumpybutfunny about rostering and work life balance needing to be addressed. I don’t think the 48hrs+ is the issue - most graduates on a high trajectory work that - but the actual rostering of shifts and on call, and the power-plays leaving junior doctors emotionally washed out rather than supported, they need to change.

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It doesn’t matter whether the average Mumsnetter thinks the salary of good or not, young people are not going into certain professions at the rate they were in the past which suggests the salary doesn’t reflect the working conditions.

Medicine applications continue to far outstrip the available places at universities. The shortage of doctors can be easily fixed by training more and improving working conditions (which are partly bad because there aren't enough staff).

That isn't true of other professions. For instance, this academic year only 17% of teacher training places for physics were filled.

It's the career path to one of the most, if not the most high status job in society, high value skills almost globally, massive social currency in it, massive pay in it.

Clearly it is a difficult path. I think it's worth suffering low pay, gruelling effort, long hours and mental load at the start (and by low wages I mean around what the managers at your local retail establishments get paid) because really as a trainee you are being given access to expensive facilities and people's lives/bodies, when the outcome will be some pretty nice wealth and status.

That's balanced, I think - we could easily be bitter about GPs abandoning some people to die these days, switching to policies that kill people who have trouble asking for help (seriously, keep an eye on the ND, elderly and otherwise vulnerable in your life, they may be going without medical care for serious problems). Or surgeons botching operations in life-changing ways. But junior doctors have nothing do with those things and work bloody hard.

I’ve seen the struggle that medical school can be.

Junior doctors have had a pay cut in real terms—a big one.

I am not happy about them striking but I can see where they’re coming from. I just hope some kind of agreement can be reached.

I read these threads and hope it helps doctors make the decision to emigrate. They deserve better.

Just as well.
A doctor may need a paramedic to treat them in an emergency situation while the fire brigade is trying to safely extract them from a car crash…
This may be in the middle of the night whilst freezing and hailing and well after the end of their respective shifts.
But as a paramedic only goes to university for 3 years (rather than your 5 and bin persons 0) so perhaps only 60% worthy of decent pay? Not to mention a paramedics ultimately lack of progression in terms of salary scope as they gain experience.

"because really as a trainee you are being given access to expensive facilities and people's lives/bodies"

What a really odd way to say "keeping people alive and curing their health problems".

Treating the sick is hardly something that only benefits the doctor, is it?

For me there are a few issues with this which don't make it as straightforward as it seems.

My friend is a junior doctor. She's also ardently left wing and is massively supportive of strikes, thinks the workload is too much and thinks she should be paid more because she's struggling financially. She just got off holiday. Skiing.

She can't square the circle that healthcare is expensive and increasing pay means less money for staff / has to be paid for by tax rises which will hit better paid professionals most. That being people like her. Nor the fact that one of the most left wing countries in the world which is renowned for its health care system poorly pays it's staff.

She weirdly out of touch with reality, despite dealing with the public and the social problems they have on a daily basis. She could do extra shifts as they are constantly available to her which is an option many people don't have.

Where I think there should be room for movement is over cost of education. I think that there's a case to be made to get suspended fees if contracted to the NHS for so many years. If you leave before then you need to repay loans. I also think there should be better ways to do the rotation system which potentially includes NHS accommodation being an option for more as part of a package. Including for families.

But in terms of finances now, I don't think it's a badly paid profession because of the opportunity to progress to a good level.

I find it hard to listen to someone who lives alone in a 3storey victorian house in a very nice area, went to private school and had an enormous deposit from Daddy saying how hard done by she is. She's utterly tone deaf.

There's no use training people if they don't stay in the profession. This is what is happening.
Look at the veterinary profession. Double the number being trained compared to 15 years ago, salaries have also risen a lot, (not to mention costs to clients) but high numbers leaving after only a year or 2 mean a nationwide shortage of vets.
Veterinary salaries are obviously much lower than for doctors..but that's not actually the problem. It's the long hours and stress caused by chronic understaffing, abuse from the public, and feeling like you can't do a good job for your patients.

I've never met a poor consultant, and have paid huge amounts privately. It's a long haul isn't it.

Ah the race to the bottom, ridiculous. It's irrelevant what we as the public think anyway, fact is many doctors are leaving and pay is part of the issue. If it's not addressed we either accept care is going to be worse than it is as PAs (who crazily get paid more even though they are less qualified with less responsibility than JDs) fill the gaps, or private healthcare becomes more prominent and the NHS shrinks what it offers. Personally I think the dismantling of the NHS would be great for healthcare staff and their pay- plenty of the public don't value their work or worth as it is so who cares at this point.

Hope threads like these put the fire in any bellies of people not sure whether to strike or not! It would if it was me.

I would support junior doctors taking whatever steps they feel are necessary.
It's a gruelling apprenticeship.

£29k is over the student loan repayment threshold, so they start repaying their student loans before they finish training - this is deducted before net wages are paid

Then there are [https://www.bma.org.uk/join/subscription-costs BMA membership]] costs

There are 24 Royal Colleges of Medicine and membership costs vary. If a doctor needs to specialise, then membership to one or more of the colleges is compulsory

Membership of these colleges and of the BMA also depends on CPD and guess what? This also involves paying more money for more training courses and exams on top of any further specialisation training required

Typical ongoing costs for a junior doctor still in training can be up to £6k a year, that's before medical insurance, pensions, loan repayments, housing, food, travel, parking fees (Yes, many hospital trusts will charge staff for parking) and just living.

I work shifts as clerical staff member and in many months, net more than a junior doctor does.

They’re not trained by the tax payer, they’re trained by student loans resulting in long term debt, and have to pay for their own exams.

Sorry

BMA membership]]

You sound jealous. Why are you friends with someone you obviously resent?

Crikey

BMA membership

I think FY1 and 2 posts in particular are woefully underpaid. But I thought that CT/ST3s were paid £50k+ rather than 'stagnating at around £40k'? Is that wrong?

Presumably there are OOH and on call premia these days? I know banding has gone for most, but am not sure what's replaced it.

The student loans pay for a small part of the total cost of their training and they're not the only people with student debt.

That’s to @RedToothBrush - quote was erased.

Not really debt is it, if your earnings drop below the threshold of what many people earn you never pay it back.

You only pay more as you earn more.