To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

There's lots of money in medicine. It takes a few years as do most well paid professions. They all end up on multiples of the average wage. They may not be in it for the money but they will end up with money nonetheless.

How do doctors suppose that other people who earn LESS than 29k a year manage to live?

The public will get the healthcare they deserve……

do people not realise that when the NHS these doctors are fighting for collapses under Tory rule it won’t be the doctors getting huge pay rises in the private market that suffer - it will be the patients! We don’t deserve the hard work these people do for us if this thread is anything to go by.

everyone in the NHS is underpaid, including doctors. The difference between nurses and doctors is that the average nurses salary is not going to substantively change over time, certainly not to the degree that a doctor’s will.

Of course this shocks me.
I never attended university, per 10 hour shift I work is payable at £300-(£600 for an unsociable shift) Work is stressful, but nowhere near the stress you would encounter.
I didn't lose out on 6+ years of earning to studying.

It makes me feel a bit like Dr's live life in a guided cage of sorts.
It makes sense why so many NHS GPs work additional shifts through private means but GPs shouldn't be needing to work second jobs.

No it doesn't surprise me

However, a doctor has the opportunity to earn more in their future

People can change their mind it's not a crime that goes for anybody. It is not a death sentence you know.

Who are you to tell others what they have signed up? I feel sorry for them tbh. I don't know how many junior Dr's leave but I know there's quite a few student nurses drop out. Your attitude is vile! Poor things the nurses are around 21ish when qualified.

I was running round Ibzia at that age!

@Drstrike you’ve clearly stated that you believe doctors are not fairly payed so what do you think a fair salary for a doctor should be?

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

You don’t jump straight to the top of any profession after a degree. They all require training, years of experience, competitive promotions, and very often CPD and exams. 13 years from 18 sounds pretty good.

My sibling is a doctor (and makes a fair bit of money). My sibling had the 100 hour weesk (i.e. more experience so in a sense had more training) than the doctors of today and indeed I expect my doctor father and uncle had things even worse in their day in the 40s/50s in training.

At A level stage vast numbers want to be doctors so there is still very very much enough suitable candidates for the places available therefore the pay must be okay.
I would certainly change some of the rules if I were in power in order to retain people.

It shocks me that people doesn’t realise government charging 9.2k a year tuition fee is subsided by the government .. I.e. the tax payers money. Whilst international student easily pay 30-40k a year for the same course! So yes whilst you studied for 6 years the government had to pay 150k per person just to then train you at a hospital which cost more.

It is extremely noble career and we thank you for the contribution. However if you went into being a doctor for the money I would be extremely worried because it is entirely the wrong incentive.

This comment does not put doctors in a favourable light.
There nothing wrong with a confident doctor, however an arrogant doctor is a dangerous one.

I agree.
The Doctors will be able to afford private healthcare, as will some others.

The moaners who didn’t want Doctors to have a pay rise because binmen do t see a big pay rise across their careers, or because they don’t earn big bucks themselves, will be the ones who suddenly wonder how they are going to get healthcare.

I suppose we are a society which can’t afford the level of healthcare we’d like. It costs a vast amount of money to provide but people don’t get that. If they won’t pay for it (funding the NHS and paying staff adequately) then they will get what they’ve paid for…not much.

It’s just so short-sighted.

It is also worth remembering that the vast majority of GPs operate in private businesses - it is the way the NHS was set up not some Tory conspiracy. So GP salaries are either set by their GP bosses or are a profit-share.

We should pay a fair wage for us all to live on. At the least everyone should be able to house, clothe, heat and eat against inflation. Sacrifices for the progression of society should be acknowledged and then rewarded enough to encourage and retain that workforce.

I also live in a utopia where people value each other and see beyond the right wing press. Funny how this thread has turned into “despicable rich doctors” but at this moment we have politicians actively running the country to the ground.

Interesting.

My DS is currently finishing up med school in the US. It's a different system, of course. He has a BSc (four years) and will have an MD (four years) come May. He'll proceed to hospital residency in his specialty (three years) and from there to a fellowship, as his chosen career is a sub specialty.

As a resident, he will not be talking to patients about their terminal diagnoses. He will not have a decision-making role. He will be very much the junior doctor in the hospital setting initially, with increasing responsibility, and even an instructional role developing over the course of his three years. He will be on call and can expect little sleep. Hospitals here squeeze a lot of work out of residents, but it's not the generalist junior hospital doctor situation of the British system. He will be directly immersed in his specialty, having spent the last two hears of med school doing specialty rotations plus endless exams in each specialty.

His starting salary will be just north of $50k. It's a salary he can live on if he's fairly frugal, and might even be able to start saving a little for a downpayment on a home. His loan repayments will kick in as soon as his first paycheque hits his bank account. He has rather high loans to pay off. Take the £85k and multiply it by about 4... However, over the course of his career, he will make enough to pay it off.

It does surprise me, I guess when I think of doctors I think of the ones I see at the private hospitals I go to who are probably on ten times that amount.

For reference, the average salary of a garbage collector in the metro area where I live is about $54k annually, with a ceiling of about $110k.

Western Australia offering £85,000 for F2. Why wouldn't you ? Especially reading all this and seeing that doctors are not valued here. It's like teaching, 'don't like it then leave'. So they do. And we now don't have enough doctors, nurses or teachers - that went well. Good luck if you ever need the NHS.

Australia doesn't have an NHS, you have to pay to see a doctor. Maybe doctors here should advocate we do the same so they can have a pay rise?

And also for reference, UK-trained doctors can make far more than their £58k after 5-10 years if they up sticks and take the exams that allow them to practice in the US.

They can look forward to far higher career earnings and quality of life.

Highly trained medical professionals are in heavy demand abroad.

Perhaps people on this thread would like an American style medical system? Funnily enough, younger Doctors will be earning more than here. The hospitals they work in are resourced properly because people are paying for it.

Everyone can fund their own medical care through insurance or paying as they go.

Oh, but people do t realise just how much that would actually cost them…..and actually vast numbers wouldn’t be able to afford it.

A decent system has to be paid for and won’t happen without the cash. If it doesn’t come from individuals paying for themselves or private insurance, more money is needed from taxes. The jobs have to be attractive to people in terms of satisfaction from the conditions and ability to get on and do the job and make a difference, and salary to live a decent life that reflects the qualifications and training you have. Currently the jobs are not attractive on the basis of junior pay and especially the conditions.

if people don’t want to pay up and address those issues, Doctors, nurses etc will leave. Our choice.

Just thinking about the pay gap - paying the same % increase also increases that pay gap. So 10% pay rise for someone (nurse) on £30k takes them to £33000, whereas someone (doctor) on £60k now gets £66000. So in one year the pay gap increases from £30,000 to £33,000. Over time that gap has kept increasing. Perhaps we should instead be considering absolute, rather than relative increases; so when a doctor gets a £6k increase then so do nurses.

Great idea, let the poor die.

Exactly.

These threads are so pointless. Fine. Show doctors what you think, encourage them to leave, why not.

Btw that student loan when paid back (cumulative interest from day one of study) ends up being £125k. This is no longer a hugely subsidised course. Comparisons to international fees show what the market will support rather than the cost of course delivery, and the £250k estimate includes doctors actual salaries when working.