To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

And so they will, and I can’t blame them.

@Househare Well glad your not talking about me 😂 As I`m very successful thank you and live a very comfortable life. But I do however look down on people who put themselves on a pedestal at those stuck at the bottom.

A junior doctor is a qualified doctor. Even from their first rotation they have a high level of responsibility. I suspect ignorance is playing a big part in your views.

No it doesn’t shock me in the slightest - my neighbour is currently a dr in training - she knows exactly what she is signing up for and wants to do it 🤷🏻‍♀️

That's a good wage. Twice what I earn.

My point is you don’t know what people go through. Your posts infers only menial workers struggle. I have tried to point out that everyone does. I do not think I am more I important, or deserving of more sympathy than anyone.

Our society has decided which jobs are to be awarded more money than others. Due to education and specialism. This has been fine for decades but due to austerity, we have found that the gap between middle professional careers and menial jobs are closing. This is now having an adverse effect on recruitment.

Give her a couple of years. I am a senior experienced GP. I can't recruit partners but have a number of young salaried doctors. All broken and despairing desperate for a way out. I spend a lot of time supporting and mentoring.

What do you think the actual cost it is for studying medicine per year without government subsidies?

I mean, it is in some ways a consequence of wage progression in the minimum wage bracket. But who would begrudge the very lowest paid in society getting a living wage?!

Okay, let's focus on the £25,213 figure than. Still only a few thousand less, for a job with no years spent doing a degree or having £85k to pay back, and no life or death decisions or responsibilities.

As I've said, I do not look down on anyone's way of earning a living, and there are loads of them (including being a bin man) that I wouldnt want to have to do. But if we are to have a reasonably effective NHS when we have need of it, we need those with the ability to be doctors, to choose medicine over something a lot easier, that doesn't take five years of training and doesn't leave them with a huge bill. I'm not saying their only other choice would be to be a bn man, but of you're bright enough to get into medical school, there are any number of alternative careers that pay more and more quickly. So we need incentives for people to train as doctors. It's in OUR interests.

There are very few of us who won't need a doctor in an emergency at some point, or because we or our children contract some dangerous condition. I want them to be there when that happens, and I can't find it in me to resent them being paid well.

Absolutely no-one, again a consequence of austerity.

NMW and benefits have risen (although still slowly), however public sector workers have seen many years of no inflation matching rises, or below inflation rises. This has narrowed the gap.

but everyone else coming out of Uni has similar levels of debt. Many go into professions with lower starting salaries. As someone else has already mentioned law is particularly low while teaching is a relatively good starting salary but earning ability in the future radically changes as the years progress.

I don't think the salary itself is shocking but I do think everything else to look after staff is the problem. That goes for teachers dealing with violence and disgraceful behaviour from parents and pupils, doctors dealing with too long hours, too much pressure and not enough sleep etc

my thoughts exactly. And everyone allowed themselves to believe in 2008 that the economy being tanked was the fault of those on benefits and johnny forrin.
bankers, meanwhile, on caviar and champagne like they never caused the problem

I do think first year pay is a touch too low. Eg civil service fast stream starts on 28k, local government grad scheme £28 and first year doctors probably should be on a bit more eg 30-32k with steady rises as they gain more experience.

The training posts can be pretty brutal with lots of people having to frequently relocate, long hours etc. yes there is an element of doing the time but why should we burn them all out in crappy conditions just because they can earn well as consultants. These should be highly prized staff who are very well trained, intelligent people. I want junior doctors (who can actually quite senior really) to be able to train, get a good wage and not burn out before consultant level.

Junior doctors are all doctors who are not consultants.
if you’re going to be abrasive at least try to inform yourself first

We don't reward bankers more than doctors. Banks pay bankers. We pay doctors. The bankers that earn millions earn 100s of millions for their employers. And you have to be extremely good at your job to be at that level, most bankers earn less than doctors. Unlike doctors, they aren't paid in salary bands, Banking is among the most meritocratic sectors in the country. If you are a good earner you will climb to the top, if you aren't, you won't.

Indeed, @MrsMurphyIWish and I am also employed by a government owned entity. So I have the same issues re: pay progression - i.e. none. I guess my point is everyone in the public sector is underpaid. Everyone deserves a pay lift. But I can’t see it happening.

Very few professions have 5 year mandatory uni course do they??

It’s a terrible wage!!!!

Why do we accept such low wages for socially important roles but do not bat an eyelid at other over paid professions.

All of that money to pay bankers is in the same eco system as the public sector. Those bankers benefit from having decent public services and a strong infrastructure.

@Drstrike

overall I agree doctors need better pay and conditions.

and the emphasis is as much on conditions as pay.

£29k is a good starting salary, especially in a career with earning growth potential. But not at the very high personal cost for years on end being a doctor currently requires.

i think there needs to be a wider range of career paths including more flexible paths to development and decent earnings on the way up. I gather trying to mix part time working once you’ve had kids is particularly difficult and both short sighted and wildly I fair given how many doctors are women.

and just that generally there need to be ore options than ‘slog your way to be a consultant’ to have a decent pay / work / life balance.

However. I also think your air of exceptionalism and entitlement stinks and is undermining your arguments!

yes the NHS has problems and the pay and conditions of doctors and nurses is part of that. But that’s true of many public services in the U.K. and some of the private sector too.

you could, and should, situate your case in that wider context, not snobbishly declare bin men are lesser and so have nothing to do with it.

£29k is above the U.K. AVERAGE annual earnings. So while it may not be enough, when also considering what the job requires. It is, on absolute terms more than most people in the U.K. will ever earn.

Outside London it affords a decent standard of material living, too many people cannot or barely cover the essentials of housing, food, essential bills.

get some perspective and empathy and you’d be more persuasive.

Second your patronising talk down attitude is a massive problem.

Common in the medical world but increasingly unacceptable in general. It’s also a bad relationship management and comms strategy.

in my view all doctors would benefit from training in how to communicate better, both one to one and to large audiences.

I’ve had a few run ins with doctors and I’m always shocked both by the attitude they bring and their inability to see how THE WAY THEY ARE APPROACHING THE CONVERSATION makes the outcome they apparently seek less not more likely.

for a bunch of smart people a lot of them you included have some serious knowledge gaps.

And that comes from arrogance.

I persuade people for a living so I’m good at it. And could give a much longer analysis of the ways doctors and medicine in general are bad at it and could improve.

You’ll probably consider that a fluffy and lightweight career compared to yours.

but i could teach you how to win this argument better and be a better doctor.

This is an excellent point

I’m a full time consultant, for which I trained for 14 years after 6 years at med school. In the past week I have worked resident 2000 until 0900,resident 0800-1700, resident 0800-2200 and off site on call until 0800, resident 0800-1800 and am on today (0800 until tomorrow 0800).
Im not complaining but fyi I earn £99k.

5yrs x £9250 tuition fees = £46, 250
5yrs x £5088 maintenance loan = £25,440 (assuming 2 parents earning £28k each).

= circa £72k of debt.

With earning of £33k pa you'll pay back approx £44 per month towards your student loan.

At consultant level they earn £80-110K pa - not exactly destitute, plus their private work. My DD's consultant charges £350ph for a private consultation.

I think conditions should be MUCH better but cannot feel sorry for them with their long term salary, especially when you think about the limited salaries of nurses and midwives.

Oh please. That is beyond patronising and arrogant. Doctors course have absolute tons of communication skills.
But when doctors are undermined, disrespected, dumbed down, overworked and underpaid and argued with at every turn, burnt out and fed up then sometimes we really can't be bothered.
And doctors need a little bit of confidence and arrogance. You don't want quiet little timid doctors.