To think its time to get rid of personal titles ie. Miss, Mrs, Ms?

[jumpingbean1810]

I was ordering something in a shop the other day and the assistant, in her 20s, was putting my details into their system. She said, I hate asking this, I find it so embarrassing but are you Miss, Ms or Mrs? I replied I'm Miss. I was there with my daughter so in that one exchange I'd divulged I was a single, unmarried parent. It's not information the shop needs for me to order a lamp. And if I was a man, they'd be Mr and none the wiser as to marital status. I know I could say Ms but does any married woman really use Ms? So Ms just ends up sounding like a Miss with issues. It got me thinking why do we need personal titles, how often are they really used anyway? Can they not just be scrapped from form filling? With the increasing desire by the younger generation to not even be defined by gender, identifying women by their marital status feels so outdated. It's international women's day tomorrow and in the spirit of embracing equity, isn't it time we abolished women being defined by marital status?

I did a dbs check a while ago and it insisted on knowing my previous names. I was most confused as I have never changed my name. But the programming won't accept a ms x hasn't had a previous name.

So I had to complete a whole section of the form for my old name which was identical! And make up a date for which both identical names changed to the other.

Truly sexist programming. (Men could just tick to confirm not known by any other names in past, but women can't tick that box!)

I now use Dr but I was Ms since I was old enough to have an opinion. I'd happily 'get rid of' titles - i.e. phase out their use though. Quite often, in writing, I simply use M. as a title when I don't know the person.

I giggle when I meet women who preen themselves over being 'Mrs' though as if marriage was some kind of achievement.

What a bizarre comment. If something is done better why wouldn't we adopt it? Also you do realise all countries and cultures borrow from each other and evolve, right??

I don’t want personal titles to be removed. I’m a teacher, the children call me Mrs X-that works well. I don’t want them to call me by my first name and I am not Miss or Ms.

In court hearings and papers etc women are ms regardless of marital status and men are mr. I think that's so neutral I like it

I'm married and I use Ms.

Mainly because I didn't change my surname, and Mrs Bonheur is what I think of as my Mum's name. Mrs Husbandsname is also what I think of as my MIL's name.

I stopped using Miss after the age of about 25. I'm not a little girl.

I have used Ms before and after getting married.

The only way to do it is for more and more married and never married women to start using Ms.

The "proud to be a Mrs" types enjoy the social capital that comes with telling the world that they are married. If enough married and unmarried women over a certain age (past early 20s, say) start using Ms, Ms will come to mean "adult woman who considers that her marital status is none of your damn business" and Mrs will come to mean "adult woman who wants you to know she is married".

I had exactly the same. I was not impressed.

Because sometimes it's interesting to look out a bit and not be so insular!

That's really annoying.

I think I would have put previously known as Miss until my 18th birthday and then Ms. I guess it sort of sends a message. But it would be best not to have to.

Different situation, but somewhat similar. I wanted to get an observation on my passport saying "also known as" my husband's name, because I thought sometimes it would be useful to have a piece of ID in that name even if I never use it. (It could come in handy for travelling with our children, but also you'd be surprised how often I get a parcel addressed to Mrs Husbandsname from a well meaning friend or relative and have to go to the Post Office with my ID to pick it up.)

Anyway, the guy at the Passport Office said I could have the passport issued in my married name, with "also known as" my birth name, but not the other way around, even though my birth name is my actual main surname that I use every day. When I objected, he said I could have an observation saying "wife of" husband's name. I said, why don't you just print "property of" while you're at it??

(This was a same day appointment so we were face to face.)

I stayed there protesting until eventually he checked with someone higher up the food chain and did what I wanted.

The casual sexism runs through the system like the words in a stick of Brighton rock.

And those who think that it’s just fine that Mrs/Miss exist and that their choice to be called Mrs has absolutely no bearing on other people’s choices cannot see how their misogynistic sexist choice negatively impacts all other women and society in general… Give me strength.

My choice is to be 'Miss' (as I have been for fifty years) and nobody gets to take my choice of what I call myself away from me.

If attempting to tell women that they have to use X, Y or Z title Because Sexism/Misogyny isn't sexism and misogyny, I don't know what is. Or is it only not OK to be told what to do by men, but fine to be told what to do by other women?

The OP was embarrassed at having to declare her marital status.

But she wasn't asked to declare her marital status. She was asked her title.

Many posters here say all women should be "Ms" (in line with Mr). if the OP finds it embarrassing to be both a Miss and a mother, then she could have used the Ms option.

Married Ms here, no particular issues aside from not wanting strangers to know my marital status as it's not relevant and it's not something men have to put up with. If everyone used Ms the problem would be solved.

I agree, but you can't bring about the change you want by taking choices away from others, even if you think their choices smack of internalised misogyny.

We have to do it gradually, by normalising "Ms". By normalising the idea that every woman over the age of 18 can use "Ms" if she doesn't want to be identified by her marital status, and that she can stay Ms for her whole adult life, irrespective of whether she gets married or divorced or never marries.

If enough young women do this, "Mrs" will eventually come to be seen as quaint and old fashioned, and the idea that you call yourself "Mrs" to show everyone that you are married will no longer be something to aspire to.

I bet it would also lead to more women keeping their names when they get married too. As soon as you encourage women to question "Mrs", they'll start to question other patriarchal naming traditions.

The one that irks me is people who address things to Mrs X Betty (X being DH's first name). I wish that would die out. I am Mrs T Betty; I might have taken his surname but I definitely did not take his first name!

Meant to quote @daisypond there.

This is interesting. I thought Miss could only be used if unmarried. Mrs if married - and Ms if married but diff surname (chose to keep maiden name), or divorced (as couldnt then go back to Miss).
Mr can be master (under 16) or Mister (over 16).
I agree it’s completely outdated.

@FamilyLife2point4 Most women I know in my mum's generation who have got divorced still use Mrs and their married surname. The women I know in my generation who have got divorced (which is not many because we're still quite young) have all changed their names back. I don't know what title they use.

Absolutely no law governing these titles whatsoever. Who would monitor it? What would the sanctions be for getting it wrong? How could a law exist that required women to share their marital in this way but not men?

See also “changing names back on divorce”.

Because men keep their names forever but ours are only temporary/loaned from them. 😡

You’re the one giving too much power to what was literally an 80yr fad in our history that can be easily replaced by the original usages of Mrs/Miss. By insisting that Mrs= married and Miss = unmarried you are the one perpetuating sexism and misogyny.

Mrs doesn’t mean married and Miss doesn’t mean unmarried to everyone. Many women and men know for a fact it doesn’t and they do not assume that a Mrs is married or that a Miss is unmarried.

You’re the one causing damage to women by insisting on this long outdated Victorian fashion as if it were still true today. It’s not those of us reclaiming the original meaning or using whatever title we want to for different reasons that have nothing to do with marital status.

An 80 year fad?

I take it you've never read any Jane Austen then.

The women I know in my mum's generation who have got divorced after long marriages seem to have kept their names partly because they don't want to advertise to the world that they are now divorced (getting divorced isn't a status symbol the way getting married is) and partly because they've lived with their married names for so long that it would be weird to change back.

The women I know in my generation who have got divorced after short marriages seemed to change their names back very quickly, almost as if to try and erase that error in judgement and pretend it never happened. Either that or remarry very quickly and change their name again...

In France your married name is only ever considered borrowed, and if you want to keep using it after divorce you need your soon to be ex husband to agree to it and have it written into the court order.

All reasons why it's simpler to just not change your name in the first place.

I'd encourage any woman changing her name and title because she wants to tell the world she has got married to consider whether she'd be equally happy for the world to know she has got divorced.

I mean i can use Mrs quite easily and it would be perfectly fine (never married)

no legal issue at all

Loads of divorced women use Mrs and widowed ones too, and neither of that group is married.

but overall, it should just be Ms for every female over 18, for the greater good of all females. if you want people to know you are married, tell them! the post man doesn't need to know.