To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

Yas queen/king 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻, thank you.

Not for everyone. I co-slept with DS from 6 months through to 2 years and he still woke every 1-2 hours throughout the night for that entire time, both before and after he was night weened. At age 4 he's still a terrible sleeper. Obviously I must be doing it wrong

Op I wonder why you feel parents can’t look after themselves AND offer baby led parenting?

Most parents can run themselves baths, take it in turns to have breaks and rest, time table in naps in the day when the baby sleeps etc. self care and good parenting go hand in hand.

Goodness me I’m really quite glad I had
my two DC 10+ years ago. There just didn’t seem
to be so much of a vested interest in how other people parent their baby or so much judgment towards our fellow mums. Until I came onto MN I didn’t even know sleep training was a thing, but have now come to the realisation that maybe I did a bit of it with my own two (putting them down to sleep awake, differentiating between daytime and nighttime sleeping spaces). I was always told a routine is a good thing and I stand by that - but a baby led routine, nothing regimented to the dot on the clock - bath, bottle and bed. This seemed to work for me but appreciate that it didn’t or doesn’t work for everyone. I

DSIL would love to help, but can't find a way in. He has slept alone for nearly three years, while his DW and DC sleep together in another room, as they have since birth. DC is still BF on demand day and night and has never slept for more than four hours at a stretch. DC still contact naps during the day, sometimes for three hours at a time and often on the breast for all that time. DC only wants his DM and DSIL can't get a look in.

DM is exhausted, but won't entertain any changes because this js the commitment she made to her DC.

I fear for her physical and mental health and for the relationship.

Exactly @GiltEdges. Just because co sleeping works for some, doesn’t mean it works for everyone.

Every time I co slept with my baby (I’ve had 3) it meant a sleepless night for me!

MN go to advice for anyone struggling with a newborn:
Have you tried co-sleeping?
Just pop them in a sling!

YANBU OP

It’s not ‘attachment parenting’, it’s just parenting. I have no need for wanky terms to make myself feel part of some exclusive club. I’m not that insecure.

@Moonicorn

But you're very keen to distance yourself from that term, why does it matter so much?

You can look up the original studies if you don't like Emily Oster. It's really not controversial that sleep training works. One still might choose not to do it for whatever other reason, but you can be assured that it's fairly likely to actually work!

Ah, we’ve reached that stage - can’t argue the point, so go for the semantics/amateur psychology angle 😂 MN stock replies, you can’t beat them.

Amen

You said it better than I could, thank you

Can't you see the irony here?

I stand by the fact that shitty tribalism and offensive stereotypes are unhelpful.

I'm not the person doing other mothers down

You have a good day Qwerty.

Yeh irs a nightmare

The mothers I knew who did this 100% esp after age 1 (co sleeping, extended bf past age 2) all ended up not working long term, kids behavioural problems and often divorced

It's too intense for normal life and the Matyr aspect appeals to a certain type of woman

Practical women got on with it but if you're exhausted due to sleep loss for 2yrs or so unfortunately lots of other things suffer

I co slept for 6wk and bf nine for 18m (3 kids) and have always worked FT.

So, I tried to "look up the original studies" and found this systematic review (the best kind of scientific evidence) which found that parents reported greater sleep duration and self efficacy with sleep training, but actually there were equally as many night wakings (the only thing that can be objectively measured here without wiring baby up to electrodes). Essentially, at scale, sleep training makes parents feel better, but probably doesn't do much for sleep. That outcome is supported by this longitudinal study showing sleep training has little impact on long term sleep.

Babies are often poor sleepers. There is no evidence that sleep training improves this reliably. What we need, then, is more support for parents, so that no-one has to get to the point where they haven't slept more than 20 minutes for a year, but acknowledging biological reality is just too much like hard work, eh?

This is the work I was referring to earlier.

Babies wake up a lot. Parents need support to deal with this, not snake-oil self-help books with a magic bullet to fix it.

The mothers I knew who did this 100% esp after age 1 (co sleeping, extended bf past age 2) all ended up not working long term,

I work full time and still regularly end up with DC in my bed, and breastfed both mine until they were 3. It's possible that more women than you know do it, but just don't talk about it outside of close friends.

I don't think I'm more tired than any of my other working mum friends!

I don’t think a bath will really help if you haven’t slept for more than an hour or two at a time for 6 months.

Having a bath isn’t self care ffs.

Also, ‘sleeping when the baby decides to sleep’ isn’t really going to work long term, is it? What about when there’s another child? Or the mum goes back to work?

Baby led parenting probably isn’t going to work if you are FT 😂

A candle lit bath is of course self care.

There's nothing baby led about working full time.

Well mine aren't babies anymore, they are 3 and nearly 7. I just wanted to point out possible breastfeed (mornings and evening on weekdays) and cosleep and not be an exhausted zombie.

No exactly. It’s not going to be possible to function on two hours sleep and hold down a job.

That is why whatever route people choose - it’s the right one for them. Not to be judged. There isn’t a ‘higher’ way to raise children - children thrive in good routines, stability and pref with the bills paid.

Bright gold star for you 🌟
Are you always this empathetic?

There have been numerous studies showing that Feber or CIO doesn't work for a minority of babies. Often around 10%. This isn't including the families who dropped out of the studies or switched groups because they felt their babies were becoming too distressed.