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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

349 replies

Santaslittlehelper83 · 06/03/2023 20:17

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

OP posts:
Tiddler39 · 07/03/2023 12:17

thatheavyperson · 07/03/2023 11:56

See, I find the opposite. Any sleep training method that involved letting my baby cry just wasn't for me (no judgement at all to anyone who uses CIO) and I really resisted cosleeping until about 6 months. We were up every hour or sometimes less, and it was at a point where I was regularly falling asleep holding my son in bed which is obviously far, far more dangerous than any risk from planned, safe cosleeping with a six month old.

So as a result, my 15 month old still cosleeps with us and I'm not going to bother trying to get him in his own bed until he's a little older, old enough to understand a little more. I'm aiming for before 3.

Anyway, I've felt lots of judgement about cosleeping - there's plenty on this thread, there was one comment in particular asserting that mothers only cosleep because they're selfish and want to feel needed Confused.

I think this is the issue - most mothers end up feeling judged for their choices, because there's a vocal minority of mothers who insist on being cruel about anyone who parents differently to them. I assume it stems from insecurity.

My mum coslept with me, and my grandmother coslept with her children too. But my grandmother in particular has also described times where she couldn't respond to crying (she had three young children after all!). She doesn't see that as remotely contradictory, because she parented in a time where she was just left to follow her instincts. She didn't read any parenting books, she didn't have masses of stuff online about different "approaches", and she didn't feel any need to align herself with a particular approach and follow the rules to the letter. She just parented the way she instinctively wanted to.

I think that is the most healthy approach - trust your instincts. We're all doing our best, and what other people do has zero affect on you. AFAIK, there's no evidence that sleep training causes emotional damage. There's also no evidence that sleep trained babies sleep better than non-trained babies in the long run. So just do what is happiest and healthiest for you and your family, and know that the people who are judging you are probably just very insecure about their own parenting.

Show quote history

I think it’s fine to trust your instincts, but some first-time mums don’t have any (and that’s fine) and they just don’t know what to do.

Then along comes the pressure to be with your baby constantly (and the awfully judgemental term ‘gentle parenting’) and they feel that that’s what they ‘should’ be doing.

If that doesn’t actually suit them, they end up sleep deprived and forcing an approach that harms everyone involved.

kenne · 07/03/2023 12:24

Yes, sleep training really does work. From Emily Oster's book:

There are many, many studies on this, employing a variety of related procedures (many of these are randomized trials). A 2006 review covered nineteen studies of the unfortunately named “Extinction” method—the form of “cry it out” in which you leave and do not return—of which seventeen showed improvements in sleep.3 Another fourteen studies used “Graduated Extinction”—where you come in to check on the baby at increasingly lengthy intervals—and all showed improvements. A smaller number of studies covered “Extinction with Parental Presence”—in which you stay in the room but let the child cry—and these also showed positive effects. These effects persist through six months or a year in studies that can look this far out. This means that children who are sleep trained are sleeping better (on average) even a year after the training. These methods do not completely solve all sleep problems from day one. And some children respond better than others, as do some parents.

IAmTheWalrus85 · 07/03/2023 12:24

I don’t know the group you’re talking about OP, but I know what you mean. I think this about the oh-so-revered Sarah Ockwell-Smith. I read a couple of her books when a friend lent them to me and I found them incredibly patronising - but I also found that the welfare of the mother and the rest of the family didn’t seem to feature that much.

Original poster
Santaslittlehelper83 · 07/03/2023 12:27

Tiddler39 · 07/03/2023 11:30

That’s the point OP is making. The pressure these days to do it a certain way is insane. In some of these groups/threads you’re basically accused of child abuse if you sleep train in any way.

That’s not right.

Show quote history

Yes this exactly...I really didn't mean to start a sleep training debate (honestly), more a comment on the pressure on Mums and Dad's to the detriment of their own mental and physical health. And along with this the lack of acknowledgement of the wide spectrum of approaches when it comes to sleep training.

The one post that stuck with me where Mum sounded like she was in crises....when I reflected on it I realised that no one had suggested mum seek help for her own health e.g from GP/Health visitor, it was like she didn't matter. When I logged back on to suggest this unfortunately the post had been deleted 😕

OP posts:
QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 12:30

Emily Ostler has been roundly discredited - not that she had credence on these matters beyond the best sellers list- she's an economist with no medical training and advocates drinking in pregnancy.

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:33

But I don’t think many mums are doing what ‘works for them’, I think they select a parenting style beforehand and then just say it ‘works for them’. All the ‘breastfeeding, cosleeping mummies’ I know were very vocal about this being the best method of parenting before their first babies were even born. These are the types who would rather starve their newborn a bit than give them a bottle, or would rather fall asleep at the wheel because they cannot admit their ‘natural, gentle’ method is a bunch of balls in their case that is actually damaging their child and themselves.

It’s the kiddies I feel sorry for, subjected to an endless wheel of feeding to sleep so they’re in a state of semi wakefulness and distressed that the ‘comforter’ they fell asleep with is no longer there when they wake up. This on top of a crabby tired mother who spends all day lying on the sofa ‘unable to cope’ with them because she’s slavishly following a pointless ideology which makes her a spaced out zombie. Hey ho, at least she has the approval of some faceless women on the Internet I guess

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:35

FigAndOlive · 07/03/2023 10:25

For those saying that sleep training doesn’t work with all babies I have to say I disagree.

I’m on a Ferber Method Sleep Training group on facebook and most of us start a thread asking for reassurance before starting as we don’t think it’s gonna work, my baby is absolutely high needs, strong willed, cranky, clingy, boobmonster, you name it. I guess we all think our babies are very special and different from the others but the moms always come back saying it did work! Because they actually want it to work and spend some time reading and studying it before applying it.

What I have seen on MN is people asking for help with sleep and saying “please don’t suggest CC/CIO because I KNOW it won’t work with my baby” or “I am at my wits end after months of waking up every 45min, don’t suggest CC/CIO as we once left him to cry for 5min in the middle of the night and he got in such a state so I know it’s not going to work!”

The thing with sleep training is that you have to read, study and choose a method that suits you. Then you spend a week or two sorting out their routine first so they are not over/undertired and then you start on a proper evening at bedtime and you’re consistent for a few days. You don’t just let them scream randomly after you’re trying to settle them with rocking, boob and cuddles for 2 hours in the middle of the night. That is not sleep traning!

I 100% agree with a previous poster that worked with a sleep consultant, it does work if made properly. Baby might not STTN, I know mine didn’t, we kept an early morning feed for ages and she still woke up randomly once a week perhaps before turning 1 year old.

Yes, like all things in life it might not work with a very small minority, but it’s like saying broccoli is healthy and a few are allergic to it… It doesn’t change the advice that broccoli is healthy.

It depends on your defintion of "works". A friend of mine swore by sleep training for her baby and then toddler. She would talk lyrically baout how great it was. One day I asked about a bruise on her then 2 yo's forhead. It turns out he was headbutting the door during this "training". Which she apparently had to redo every 4-6 months or after each bout of illness of teething. In fact, it transpires in my anecdotal experience that most sleep training requires retraining at some point(s).

So not quite this magical pill that sleep training converts like to imply.

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:36

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:35

It depends on your defintion of "works". A friend of mine swore by sleep training for her baby and then toddler. She would talk lyrically baout how great it was. One day I asked about a bruise on her then 2 yo's forhead. It turns out he was headbutting the door during this "training". Which she apparently had to redo every 4-6 months or after each bout of illness of teething. In fact, it transpires in my anecdotal experience that most sleep training requires retraining at some point(s).

So not quite this magical pill that sleep training converts like to imply.

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The fact he was sleeping on the floor(?) by a door can’t have helped can it? Is she really the best example?

QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 12:37

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:33

But I don’t think many mums are doing what ‘works for them’, I think they select a parenting style beforehand and then just say it ‘works for them’. All the ‘breastfeeding, cosleeping mummies’ I know were very vocal about this being the best method of parenting before their first babies were even born. These are the types who would rather starve their newborn a bit than give them a bottle, or would rather fall asleep at the wheel because they cannot admit their ‘natural, gentle’ method is a bunch of balls in their case that is actually damaging their child and themselves.

It’s the kiddies I feel sorry for, subjected to an endless wheel of feeding to sleep so they’re in a state of semi wakefulness and distressed that the ‘comforter’ they fell asleep with is no longer there when they wake up. This on top of a crabby tired mother who spends all day lying on the sofa ‘unable to cope’ with them because she’s slavishly following a pointless ideology which makes her a spaced out zombie. Hey ho, at least she has the approval of some faceless women on the Internet I guess

If any of that were true, you'd be reporting them to social services.

Tiddler39 · 07/03/2023 12:37

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:33

But I don’t think many mums are doing what ‘works for them’, I think they select a parenting style beforehand and then just say it ‘works for them’. All the ‘breastfeeding, cosleeping mummies’ I know were very vocal about this being the best method of parenting before their first babies were even born. These are the types who would rather starve their newborn a bit than give them a bottle, or would rather fall asleep at the wheel because they cannot admit their ‘natural, gentle’ method is a bunch of balls in their case that is actually damaging their child and themselves.

It’s the kiddies I feel sorry for, subjected to an endless wheel of feeding to sleep so they’re in a state of semi wakefulness and distressed that the ‘comforter’ they fell asleep with is no longer there when they wake up. This on top of a crabby tired mother who spends all day lying on the sofa ‘unable to cope’ with them because she’s slavishly following a pointless ideology which makes her a spaced out zombie. Hey ho, at least she has the approval of some faceless women on the Internet I guess

This is a brutal assessment but I have to say I agree!

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:40

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:36

The fact he was sleeping on the floor(?) by a door can’t have helped can it? Is she really the best example?

Show quote history

He wasn't, he was getting out of bed. Clearly the sleep training hadn't really worked. She's not the best example, but is an example of people who profess the wonders of sleep training when it's not really this amazing magic pill. As I said, this led me to discover that actually most people I know who used sleep training had to on occassion retrain. It's not just let them cry one night at 8 weeks and you are guaranteed 14 hrs of sleep each night for the next 15 years, as many sleep training advocates like to make out.

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:41

QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 12:37

If any of that were true, you'd be reporting them to social services.

Show quote history

For what?

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:45

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:40

He wasn't, he was getting out of bed. Clearly the sleep training hadn't really worked. She's not the best example, but is an example of people who profess the wonders of sleep training when it's not really this amazing magic pill. As I said, this led me to discover that actually most people I know who used sleep training had to on occassion retrain. It's not just let them cry one night at 8 weeks and you are guaranteed 14 hrs of sleep each night for the next 15 years, as many sleep training advocates like to make out.

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Then she was doing CIO and leaving him on his own. Not gentle sleep training. Non story.

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:46

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:45

Then she was doing CIO and leaving him on his own. Not gentle sleep training. Non story.

Show quote history

I am talking about sleeping training advocates generally. Not specicially "gentle" ones. Elimination training is still often recommended and glorified. IRL and online.

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:47

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:46

I am talking about sleeping training advocates generally. Not specicially "gentle" ones. Elimination training is still often recommended and glorified. IRL and online.

Show quote history

Where?

QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 12:48

@Moonicorn

Starving them, driving dangerously and the rest??

Come on, I could dream up some Bollox about sleep training, FF mothers being more interested in getting their nails done and going clubbing than their kids. That's a horrible stereotype, it's not acceptable and neither is the one you came up with.

I breastfed, Co-slept, used a sling, did all the stereotypical hippie mother stuff (even purple hair) but what I don't do is spread shitty stereotypes about mothers who do things differently.

Because I'm not a total twat.

Springchicken75 · 07/03/2023 12:49

It’s clearly the wrong fb group for you given your strong feeling op.

I did my own thing, baby led sleeping and really lovely routines that we all enjoyed. Long baths, baby massages every evening, half light and snuggly stories. I accepted, with good grace, I would be exhausted in the early years because I am realistic! What is wrong with our culture that we seemingly can not cope with being tired. It does mean you won’t have a social life for a while, easy meals will be standard but self care is essential. I combined both self care and baby led parenting and it was a beautiful experience.

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 12:56

QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 12:48

@Moonicorn

Starving them, driving dangerously and the rest??

Come on, I could dream up some Bollox about sleep training, FF mothers being more interested in getting their nails done and going clubbing than their kids. That's a horrible stereotype, it's not acceptable and neither is the one you came up with.

I breastfed, Co-slept, used a sling, did all the stereotypical hippie mother stuff (even purple hair) but what I don't do is spread shitty stereotypes about mothers who do things differently.

Because I'm not a total twat.

What has clubbing got to do with formula feeding? What a weird comment.

I don’t really care what you did, I care about the fact some (yes, SOME) of these mothers neglect their children to fulfil some kind of weird parenting fantasy. Or to cosplay somebody in a cave from thousands of years ago (tongue in cheek).

There was a poster on here whose 6 month old (yes that’s months and not weeks) weighed 9lb - the size of a large newborn - because she was so slavishly devoted to breastfeeding she wouldn’t even contemplate the fact it was starving her baby and formula was probably going to be better.

There have been other posters on here (quite a few) whose babies have been readmitted to hospital with dehydration for the same reason, although thankfully they usually begrudgingly give them a bottle at that point, and it’s usually much earlier on.

Equally how many of the ‘I can’t cope, at the end of my tether and exhausted’ threads are about cosleeping and breastfeeding? A hugely disproportionate amount given it’s supposed to be much less common than putting baby in a cot or formula feeding. Why is that?

For the record I breastfed for 8 months (okay not really long, but long enough for me) and while DD has slept in her cot or bed for 90% of nights (she’s 3), I’ll bring her in if she has a nightmare or is poorly, or just now and then because she asks. It’s of no detriment to my sleep so 🤷🏼‍♀️ but it’s all ad hoc, and to be honest it’s just bed sharing, even the phrase ‘co sleeping’ is a bit unnecessarily wanky.

In fact we’ve just put a double in her room as I’m about to give birth again and DH is going to have to share her room for a little while so I can take the master bedroom with the baby. So don’t think I’m against ‘doing what works for you’, just slavishly following a parenting style even when it isnt working.

RichardHeed · 07/03/2023 12:59

God the sneering on this post at parents who chose not to cio or “sleep train” is fucking nasty. Why are women such fucking arseholes to each other?

Moonicorn · 07/03/2023 13:00

RichardHeed · 07/03/2023 12:59

God the sneering on this post at parents who chose not to cio or “sleep train” is fucking nasty. Why are women such fucking arseholes to each other?

Can you quote where somebody has been ‘nasty’ about anyone who doesn’t do cry it out?

Tiddler39 · 07/03/2023 13:01

whatadayforadaydream · 07/03/2023 12:40

He wasn't, he was getting out of bed. Clearly the sleep training hadn't really worked. She's not the best example, but is an example of people who profess the wonders of sleep training when it's not really this amazing magic pill. As I said, this led me to discover that actually most people I know who used sleep training had to on occassion retrain. It's not just let them cry one night at 8 weeks and you are guaranteed 14 hrs of sleep each night for the next 15 years, as many sleep training advocates like to make out.

Show quote history

The point is that you start off with ‘gentle’ sleep training from the beginning. From really early on you create a simple routine and the baby adapts to it.

What you’re describing isn’t sleep training - it involves a 2yo for a start. That’s not a baby. Sleep training should start way before that and no one should be leaving a 2yo in their room to go beserk.

QuertyGirl · 07/03/2023 13:02

@Moonicorn

Ah! It's an "I'm not like those other girls" thing! Got it!

This is tribalism, you're doing some of things traditionally associated with attachment parenting but you don't feel like they're your tribe, hence the deliberate distancing.

Fascinating.

Tiddler39 · 07/03/2023 13:02

And of course sometimes things get out of sync and you go through a bad patch due to teething/illness/travel. But the idea is the patterns are there so it’s not hard to get back on track.

Springchicken75 · 07/03/2023 13:07

Each family is unique, and will need to make the right decisions for themselves. If you are returning to work FT at 4 weeks will require a totally different approach to a SAHM. Housing, temperament, feeding ability, health, those that have been sexually abused, working long hours or have lots of other children to care for will naturally work around what works for them.

There is certainly NOT a right or wrong way.
Do what works for you, whatever that might be.

SheikYerboutiii · 07/03/2023 13:08

I think a lot of the time it’s not being a martyr but women having children with utterly feckless men who don’t help, or have children with a man who isn’t around (works away etc). Ultimately you put yourself in that position, so honestly I have limited sympathy for people like this when they moan about not sleeping.