To think that responsive/attachment parenting doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing?

[Santaslittlehelper83]

....or the family unit. I recently joined the fb group 'Beyond Sleep Training' as was interested in some different ideas for managing our babies frequent night awakenings. CIO/CC is not for me but I'm not adverse to more gentler methods of ST. I was really disturbed by some posts by quite clearly desperate mums, and the advice in a nutshell seemed to boil down to....'that's normal baby behaviour, deal with it!' There was to be fair some advice re tweaking routines etc, and messages of solidarity but nothing else. A lot of posters were referencing their toddlers/preschoolers who hadn't slept more than 2 hours consecutively since birth...on what planet is that helpful to a sleep deprived mum at the end of her rope!? I think it was almost competetive, like a token of honour with generally a lot of sneering towards families who chose a different approach. I also didn't see the logic of lumping all sleep training methods together....someone sensibly suggested removing nipple gently when baby finished night feed to avoid this becoming a sleep association....this was shot down by a very heavy handed post by the admin.

Of course babies needs are paramount, but Mums (and Dads) matter too.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=depts.washington.edu/fasdpn/pdfs/astley-oster2013.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjFxPbDpsz9AhWIUsAKHftmAO0QFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0urif5G98E3SmHL-w35PtH

@DowntownRegret1

"Not many parents necessarily have the skills to critically evaluate multiple research studies and make their own mind up. So it's helpful to have the evidence laid out for your perusal."

Hang on, if they cannot properly evaluate it, what use is them perusing it?

I'm not medically trained but I do deal with medical data and there is no way in hell I would claim the ability to draw conclusions based on medical risk, like she does without medical training. I know enough to know what I don't know.

Her position on alcohol was utterly irresponsible. FAS specialists (not me- doctors) were appalled.

Didn't she also go all anti-vac too?

Her book tells you what you want to hear.

No. There are no studies that show that sleep training is unsafe. There are also no real studies that show it is safe. There are no longitudinal studies past 5 years. We just don't know. So researchers in infant mental health tend to look at other studies where there are longitudinal studies and make educated guesses. I don't think there are any infant mental health institutions that support cry it out as a method. They normally advise gentle sleep training methods, which have just as good as success rate as cry it out or cc but take a little longer.

But you dont do studies on things like sleep training to ‘prove they’re safe’ in the absence of any evidence of harm, they’re safe by default aren’t they?

When they test a new drug to see if it’s safe, they don’t look for positive effects, just the absence of negative ones.

Huh? No, she's definitely not anti-vax. I think you might be thinking about someone else.

She does talk about how the reason for a zero alcohol approach in public health is because messaging around how a minimal amount is safe would likely encourage people to take that and drink more. So it's safer overall to promote abstinence from alcohol. But there is no data to suggest a very small amount has any detrimental impact on a child. There's quite a bit of discussion in her books around how public health messaging and actual evidence don't always match up and why. I'm not sure why reporting on the data is 'utterly irresponsible' tbh. It's not like she campaigned to encourage pregnant parents to drink alcohol.

Ywbu to dismiss the entire attachment parenting approach because some people take it to extremes, yes.

Just as it would be odd to characterise every parent who likes things like sleep training as a hardcore CIO nutter happy to leave their baby to scream themselves to sleep alone for hours at a time, it is odd to insist the whole attachment parenting movement 'doesn't give a flying fuck about maternal wellbeing'.

I agree, if you don't have the skills to evaluate research yourself, you don't have the skills to evaluate whether this individual (whoever she is, she's just one person and not any kind of official body) has evaluated the research correctly and is giving you an unbiased viewpoint. How can you possibly say her own evaluations are more accurate than any evaluations made by official bodies like the WHO or NHS etc? Not that they have stances on sleep training, but on other things like alcohol in pregnancy, breastfeeding etc that she has also written about.

Well, in that case we can’t listen to anyone on this thread can we? And the conversation is pointless.

I just don't think we should be giving her any reverence as if she knows better than anyone else or is a better source of information.

@3WildOnes ok, well you are in total agreement with Oster on those points then as that's exactly what she says. The evidence that we have shows that sleep training, or not sleep training, makes no difference to long term outcomes at the age of 5.

Opposition to sleep training is based on a theoretical risk of harm that could appear beyond this age, rather than any evidence that harm is caused.

However, there's also a theoretical risk that being chronically sleep deprived as a baby is harmful in the longer term. We just don't know. It's not obvious that choosing NOT to sleep train is the safe option for a baby.

Particularly if the alternative to sleep training is something that also carries a known risk, like co sleeping, as recommended by a PP.

There isn't a risk-free option, unfortunately.

However she does claim that is safe. My point is that we don't know if it is safe.
Re your point that a baby who is chronically sleep deprived could be suffering harm. Pretty much all studies on sleep training show that there is a negligible difference of overall sleep in both groups. The sleep trained group just 'signal' less when they are awake. So this wouldn't be an issue with not sleep training. Infact beyond a few months there is very little difference at all in a sleep trained group compared to a control group. It isn't a long term fix. Some in the control group improve and some in the training group regress.

Sleep and routine is essential to a babies development and a mothers mental well-being. I would suggest to any new mum to use the Gina Ford Contented Little Baby book for routine suggestions, and use controlled crying techniques guilt-free when necessary. We never experienced and issues with sleepless nights after 6weeks old. Conversely a family member who followed the baby-led method and was very reactive with boob comfort during restless nights including co-sleeping now has a 13 year old that doesn’t sleep in their own room and has no bedtime routine. Her MH is fragile and her marriage is on a knife edge!
You have to do what works for you, your relationship and baby, guilt-free. But never underestimate the power of a good night’s sleep!

I'm personally not convinced by the need for a routine. My DCs are now young adults and don't appear to have suffered from having a routine-free childhood. Obviously they went to school, but there were no fixed times for bedtime, naps, meals or anything. Things were pretty spontaneous. They've always slept well (DC1 was encouraged to sleep through from 7 months, and caught on in a couple of nights, and I don't remember even that much of an issue for DC2).

But perhaps that little bit of extra sleep is really important, at a critical juncture in development? Sleep trained babies do show short term improvements in behaviour, attachment, daytime feeding etc. perhaps that translates to long term benefits. We just don't know. At 5 there is no difference, but perhaps in the long term, the sleep trained babies do better? We do not know.

Perhaps what's critical is the mother getting more sleep, which improves her mental health and allows her to be a happy and responsive caregiver? If you work in infant mental health I'm sure you would know the impact of maternal depression on babies. Perhaps this has a long term effect, which appears after the age of 5. We don't know!

I think every parent has their own personal risk profile and there isn't a "right" answer. We have to weigh up all the known and potential risks of each pathway and make the best decision we can.

However, Some people seem unable to acknowledge any positive impacts of sleep training, or any risks associated with not sleep training, which is a bit strange. Mothers should be able to access objective and evidence-based information and advice.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. Anyone who thinks a baby crying for 12 minutes is going to suffer lasting damage needs to get real.

When you’ve seen a baby cry for a bit, settle themselves and sleep for 10 hours you realise how much better it is all round than constant wakings, baby hanging off the boob, parents lying on the floor of the nursery, DHs in the spare room…

I honestly don’t get how anyone could put up with that rather than a few minutes of crying.

@3WildOnes

Sorry, I agree with @Moonicorn - I’ve never heard of anyone being pressured to sleep train, but I have heard of loads of mums who do CC/CIO being told they’re being cruel.

The pressure is most definitely one way.

I definitely got a bit sick of friends who did so-called ‘baby-led’ parenting whingeing constantly about how little sleep they got. And yet they didn’t think to try something different! I had to keep quiet about my baby sleeping happily through the night because I would be judged or told I was just ‘lucky’.

Anyone who thinks a baby crying for 12 minutes is going to suffer lasting damage needs to get real.

Let's be honest, most second children will have cried for 5 to 10 minutes every so often. For instance, if the older child has a potty training accident and the baby is crying, you're going to need to leave the baby until you've cleaned up the older child. At least in my experience. I've got no idea what else I'd be able to do.

I am not aware of any evidence that second children suffer any long term consequences as a result.

For young babies waking up is usually normal, and 3 20 min feeds through the night shouldn’t make you sleep deprived. Though at 12 months plus I’d be expecting a better nights sleep!

I do think some Mums have wild expectations and need to be told ‘that’s what babies are like’. Preferably before they have them. A friend couldn’t believe she had to feed her newborn every 3 hours ‘even at night’ (she gave the night feeds to her husband and went to sleep in a different room). I also know one who chose formula over breastfeeding because it ‘makes them sleep more’.

she gave the night feeds to her husband and went to sleep in a different room). I also know one who chose formula over breastfeeding because it ‘makes them sleep more’.

I think these are both valid choices if that’s what you have to do to stay sane. Neither will harm the baby!

Agreed!

@Tiddler39 the shifts is a clever choice though most new Mums want to be near their baby. I can’t agree with formula just to make them sleep more as it’s harder for the baby to digest, I felt it was quite selfish. But people just have different views and preferences don’t they.

Remember Peaches Geldof eulogising about attachment parenting and missing out the heroin bit?

Completely irrelevant. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Absolutely nothing normal about a 3 year old waking several times every night. Nothing.

Says who? If some children do that (and clearly they do) then who are you to say it's not normal?

Lots of children do things that aren’t ‘normal’. My niece still refused to potty train at nearly 4, that’s not normal. My nephew still has a dummy at 3, that isn’t normal. Would you say? Despite the fact a very small number of children are similar?

A 3 year old waking up several times a night isn’t ‘normal’ because the majority of them do not.

No, you’re wrong there. Just go on the ‘sleep’ section of mumsnet, filter out babies under 6 months when frequent waking is normal and expected, and look at what’s left. It’s mums ‘at breaking point’ who ‘cannot cope’, this is the most recent from only yesterday:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/sleep/4758450-22-month-old-doesnt-sleep

And the majority of the time it includes frequent breastfeeding, cosleeping or both 🤷🏼‍♀️ which, given breastfeeding past about 4 months is supposed to be very much the minority, indicates a link, doesn’t it?