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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this woman should not be put in prison?

960 replies

Nooyoiknooyoik · 02/03/2023 15:31

Bizarre and very unfair Link

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
OneTC · 03/03/2023 21:28

dawngreen · 03/03/2023 21:25

You telling me the some one on benefits gets the best lawyer's?

Lawyers also take cases for clout

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 21:28

OneTC · 03/03/2023 21:27

What happened in the first trial?

Where are you seeing this is a retrial? A few people have mentioned that now but I couldn't find any reporting

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/02/pedestrian-jailed-manslaughter-cyclist-fall-car-huntingdon
It hasn't been in every report but this does say it was a retrial

WhoSaidWhat123 · 03/03/2023 21:32

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 21:27

www.5pb.co.uk/barristers/miranda-moore-kc you want to tell her she's not good enough to defend her?

MN’ers questioning the verdict obviously think they are more qualified than her, as well as the judge 🙄

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:34

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · Today 20:40
“Not all defence barristers are equal. The law is almost like a game of rhetoric”.

I don't disagree with your comments about the differences in judges, but she wasn't poorly represented. Her defence barrister was a highly experienced KC with particular expertise in defending vulnerable witnesses in murder and manslaughter trials.

OK, I take your point about her defence barrister. May I ask how you know, and also if you followed the trial? ( That is not meant sarcastically.)

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:37

I have just seen your link to her barrister, who does look very good.

dawngreen · 03/03/2023 21:46

Any one know what happened in the first trial then?

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:51

From the Guardian article just upthread:
DS Mark Dollard, of Cambridgeshire police, said: “This is a difficult and tragic case. Everyone will have their own views of cyclists on pavements and cycleways, but what is clear is Grey’s response to the presence of Celia on a pedal cycle was totally disproportionate and ultimately found to be unlawful, resulting in Celia’s untimely and needless death.

I note from this that the policeman speaking about Celia’s tragic death says that the culprit’s response to the ‘cyclist on a pavement’ [a known irritating phenomenon] was disproportionate, not that the pavement was designated to be shared at all times and she should have known that.

The article also mentioned that her very good barrister has said there will be an appeal, so she must feel this is outcome is not right, in spite of her culprit’s culpability.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:55

I forgot this from the Guardian article.
*“She [the barrister] said witnesses had said Grey “seemed childlike”, and that she lived in adapted special accommodation.”^

After sentencing on Thursday, Moore indicated that an appeal would be submitted and a request for bail.

Pinball2023 · 03/03/2023 21:56

She deserved longer.

OneTC · 03/03/2023 22:00

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:55

I forgot this from the Guardian article.
*“She [the barrister] said witnesses had said Grey “seemed childlike”, and that she lived in adapted special accommodation.”^

After sentencing on Thursday, Moore indicated that an appeal would be submitted and a request for bail.

They're appealing the sentence which I think will get them a reduction fwiw. They are not appealing the conviction as far as I've read

ReneBumsWombats · 03/03/2023 22:00

Will she be appealing the verdict or the sentence?

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 22:04

OK, I take your point about her defence barrister. May I ask how you know, and also if you followed the trial? ( That is not meant sarcastically.)

I didn't follow the trial, no, but the name of her barrister was published alongside some statements in several so I did some hunting about her experience and cases.

While I might be confident of my views regarding what happened based on the context/footage, I'm categorically not here to support a miscarriage of justice or the condemnation of a vulnerable person who wasn't afforded appropriate legal advice and representation, so I was genuinely interested to see who defended her.

dawngreen · 03/03/2023 22:04

Well they could not accuse her of committing the same crime twice. So was it a hung jury or some thing? Or because they could not agree the police, council, and the judge?

dawngreen · 03/03/2023 22:05

I'm categorically not here to support a miscarriage of justice or the condemnation of a vulnerable person who wasn't afforded appropriate legal advice and representation,

SAME

Moonicorn · 03/03/2023 22:18

It’s up to the defendant whether to appeal, it isn’t ‘in the professional judgement of the barrister’.

Moonicorn · 03/03/2023 22:22

dawngreen · 03/03/2023 22:04

Well they could not accuse her of committing the same crime twice. So was it a hung jury or some thing? Or because they could not agree the police, council, and the judge?

What are you talking about?

nolongersurprised · 03/03/2023 22:25

ScrollingLeaves · 03/03/2023 21:55

I forgot this from the Guardian article.
*“She [the barrister] said witnesses had said Grey “seemed childlike”, and that she lived in adapted special accommodation.”^

After sentencing on Thursday, Moore indicated that an appeal would be submitted and a request for bail.

She may seem “childlike” but does not have an intellectual disability (I think learning disability in the UK). And - of course her lawyer is going to say stuff like “childlike”.

There’s also a number of ways “partially blind” can be interpreted. My DH could be described as that, he has had to wear spectacles since he was a child, but has normal vision with them.

Adapted accommodation doesn’t mean she isn’t cognitively able.

It’s odd how posters have decided she may be on the autism spectrum, or definitely have had a brain injury, or that the arm movements were stereopathies, or spasms or that she be cognitively impaired to the extent she wasn’t culpable, when the judge decided otherwise. Of course she’d have had psychometric testing, it would be standard for a woman with disabilities especially if deemed “childlike”.

She may have had - for whatever reason - black and white thinking but that’s not a reason to argue diminished capacity. I’d argue it makes her more dangerous.

She swore at, made aggressive hand gestures towards the cyclist and admitted to touching her. From the videos the touching occurred after the cyclist was nearly safely passed her. To me, based on Grey’s body positioning it looks like a push, but i appreciate if that’s the only footage of that contact it’s be difficult to be sure.

The cyclist could easily have been a wobbly child. Grey’s entitled/angry/remorseless approach is dangerous.

Her lawyer stated that Grey’s cognitive issues (bearing in mind those issues were not sufficient to reduce capacity) meant that she was unable to verbally express remorse which is exactly what you’d except a lawyer to say. Alternatively, she could just be a vile person.

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 22:32

The cyclist could easily have been a wobbly child

It wasn't though. It was an adult, 'breaking the rules' at a time when most of the country, and particularly 'vulnerable' people, were over-obsessed with rules as a direct result of the manipulative actions of the government.

Some people went batshit and it really wasn't their fault. The government intended it.

nolongersurprised · 03/03/2023 22:42

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 22:32

The cyclist could easily have been a wobbly child

It wasn't though. It was an adult, 'breaking the rules' at a time when most of the country, and particularly 'vulnerable' people, were over-obsessed with rules as a direct result of the manipulative actions of the government.

Some people went batshit and it really wasn't their fault. The government intended it.

So it was the government’s fault that Grey acted aggressively towards the cyclist?

Was her lack of remorse the government’s fault too?

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 22:54

nolongersurprised · 03/03/2023 22:42

So it was the government’s fault that Grey acted aggressively towards the cyclist?

Was her lack of remorse the government’s fault too?

You mean her lack of remorse expressed in a manner acceptable to an OAP judge?

But I'm not saying anything's the government's 'fault' just drawing attention to the odd behaviour of many of us in 2020, which was caused by government policies. Those weird behaviours and the policies that caused them are a matter of record which will be examined for the next few years.

I've read that her apparent 'lack of remorse' is a result of her condition. I've no knowledge of her particular condition but my own 'condition' may well give rise to the same accusation under those circumstances, which is one of the several reasons I have no faith in this judge's judgments.

WhoSaidWhat123 · 03/03/2023 22:55

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 22:32

The cyclist could easily have been a wobbly child

It wasn't though. It was an adult, 'breaking the rules' at a time when most of the country, and particularly 'vulnerable' people, were over-obsessed with rules as a direct result of the manipulative actions of the government.

Some people went batshit and it really wasn't their fault. The government intended it.

’breaking the rules’ or not, she didn’t deserve to be aggressively approached by another whose actions caused her unlawful death.

nolongersurprised · 03/03/2023 23:01

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 22:54

You mean her lack of remorse expressed in a manner acceptable to an OAP judge?

But I'm not saying anything's the government's 'fault' just drawing attention to the odd behaviour of many of us in 2020, which was caused by government policies. Those weird behaviours and the policies that caused them are a matter of record which will be examined for the next few years.

I've read that her apparent 'lack of remorse' is a result of her condition. I've no knowledge of her particular condition but my own 'condition' may well give rise to the same accusation under those circumstances, which is one of the several reasons I have no faith in this judge's judgments.

Reactions after the event are also important. Stopping, calling an ambulance, attracting attention. It’s very unusual and remorseless to just leave and go shopping. Unfortunately it does make it seem like the outcome (cyclist on the road) wasn’t distressing for Grey. And it fits it with the narrative that she was angry with the cyclist.

As far as I can tell, the only person saying that Grey’s lack of apparent remorse is because of her condition is her lawyer. I mean, what disorder is that? Sociopathy? And - her lawyer would say that, wouldn’t she?

Was there evidence presented in court that lockdown affected Grey’s responses, or this this just your own projection?

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 23:03

WhoSaidWhat123 · 03/03/2023 22:55

’breaking the rules’ or not, she didn’t deserve to be aggressively approached by another whose actions caused her unlawful death.

No, lawbreakers should be left to break the law and inconvenience other people without challenge.

It wasn't 'right' that she died, but was it wrong that she was called out for breaking the law and inconveniencing a potentially over-anxuous disabled person mid-pandemic in 2020?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I can see both sides of the argument.

Personally I think the vulnerable, disabled person in 2020 is probably a huge factor in what happened.

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 23:05

nolongersurprised · 03/03/2023 23:01

Reactions after the event are also important. Stopping, calling an ambulance, attracting attention. It’s very unusual and remorseless to just leave and go shopping. Unfortunately it does make it seem like the outcome (cyclist on the road) wasn’t distressing for Grey. And it fits it with the narrative that she was angry with the cyclist.

As far as I can tell, the only person saying that Grey’s lack of apparent remorse is because of her condition is her lawyer. I mean, what disorder is that? Sociopathy? And - her lawyer would say that, wouldn’t she?

Was there evidence presented in court that lockdown affected Grey’s responses, or this this just your own projection?

It's certainly my own projection. I'm ND and I'm still recovering from 2020. Many people are still recovering from 2020.

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 23:06

I thought I'd made that clear, apologies if I didn't.