To think this woman should not be put in prison?

[Nooyoiknooyoik]

Bizarre and very unfair Link

Having seen the longer clip, I am in no doubt the pedestrian pushed the cyclist.
She may not have intended her to die, but she certainly intended to hurt her and didn't care what happened next.

Rubbish the clips do not show her pushing her!! She hears the cyclist losing it because she has lost her balance on the manhole cover. So she turns to look.

I just want to say one thing. When my dad died, I went back into high school that day, I was messing around in class, laughing and smiling. It doesn't mean I wasn't devastated, in bits.

The fact she went to do her shopping means nothing at all, some people carry on as normal. Whether she went home and cried in her bedroom or went to the shops, that to me is completely irrelevant. The news article seems to focus on her going to the shops. I mean maybe she had no food in anyway.

All she seemed to do is say "get off the f-ing pavement" and gesture.
I thought it was illegal to ride on the pavement anyway.

Showing no remorse is a different matter.

But what on earth is prison going to do about this? Nothing I'd guess. Or make her situation worse (lose her home, etc).

Rubbish the clips do not show her pushing her!! She hears the cyclist losing it because she has lost her balance on the manhole cover. So she turns to look.

What video are you watching?! Her arm moves up past her torso and retracts back in from being extended towards the cyclist, and she admits she made contact! Her weight shifts back because she leans in to push her, and I don't see a manhole cover where her front wheel veers off the pavement. She turns back to face the front when the cyclist is falling, she doesn't turn backwards to see what's happening.

@whatsup00 Well you can use that logic to a lot of people going to prison.

Don't you think the victim who died in a moment of fear as the car ploughed into her, and the driver, who will live with the guilt for an accident they had no control over, deserve justice?

Don' t you think the children, husband or family of the victim deserve justice?

It's not about the affect on the perpetrator that's the issue here. She committed a crime and now has to take the consequences of her actions. It's what we teach children.

The perpetrator admits she may have made slight contact. The force is not the issue, it was a threatening gesture which the victim reacted to. Threatening behaviour is also a criminal offence in itself. She put the cyclist in fear and her reaction had devastating consequences

But what on earth is prison going to do about this? Nothing I'd guess. Or make her situation worse (lose her home, etc).

Strange answer. That's the point of prison - to rehabilitate. Ending up in jail for acting like this should stop someone from being inclined to do it again.

I think it's incredibly sad that Celia Ward died. It's horrible. And I see the impact it has on her family (although I don't think it should be a different punishment whether someone has zero friends vs having a family of 100 caring members).

I have only been able to watch the short video, not the longer one (the link is broken). From what I saw, she shouted and sort of jerked her arm (almost like flapping/repetitive movement). As someone else on this thread said, why didn't the cyclist just stop?

If there was any physical contact that's different (as it could have pushed her into the road or altered her course) but from the BBC article it's shouting get off the fucking pavement (which is not a crime as far as I'm aware, although it's rude) and flapping her arm at someone.

I also think had the pedestrian been tiny it may not have happened, as it looked like her body was quite wide and blocking the pavement which isn't her fault, it's just her stature.

Just my opinion - some cases aren't clear cut. I just didn't like all of this focus on going shopping. If something shocking happened to me, I would stick harder to my routine tbh, no matter how bad it was.

For me justice is a very odd concept anyway. I don't really see what use this woman going to prison serves. Prison seems to increase offending, maybe she ends up as a shoplifter after losing everything, we don't know. I have had people commit fairly serious crimes against me and I didn't actually want them to go to prison, I wanted whatever caused them to do it to be put right which I didn't think prison would achieve.

I think she got a lesser sentence than she would have done as cyclists are not supposed to be riding on the pavement anyway. So many ifs and buts and many mitigating circumstances. She should not have left the scene of the accident and find it hard to believe that someone could have done that.

This woman did not seem quite mentally or physically normal. Isn’t she partially sighted too?

Why would she react ‘normally’ if that is the case? If anything maybe she should be in a nursing home, not a prison.

All people with CP have problems with movement and posture. Many also have related conditions such as intellectual disability; seizures; problems with vision, hearing, or speech; changes in the spine (such as scoliosis); or joint problems (such as contractures).

Damage to the basal ganglia can cause issues with controlling anger and other emotions. Basal ganglia damage is often associated with athetoid cerebral palsy, but can affect other types of cerebral palsy

It is believed that 25% of all cerebral palsy patients have behavioral issues. Those most at risk include cerebral palsy patients with epilepsy, intellectual disabilities, and severe pain.
Some of the problem behaviors include:
Anger issues making conflict likely

Cognitive impairment

^Symptoms of CP in adults
Some forms of CP, such as spastic cerebral palsy, cause stiff muscles, exaggerated reflexes, and abnormal movements when walking or trying to move. CP can affect the entire body, but it may also only impact one side of it. Common symptoms of CP include: muscle weakness.24 Sept 2018^

Associated autism is also possible with cerebral palsy.

That the pavement was supposed to be a joint pedestrian and cycle path is ridiculous, especially without markings - if it was indeed a joint cycle and pedestrian path, then maybe the city council highways department should be partly liable for not maintaining it correctly with markings and signs.

The ‘surely you knew about the path being shared’ remark of the judge does not seem fair at all.

The woman was sort of flapping her arms at the cyclist thinking she would be hit by the cycle. The cyclist must have veered out of the way, or at any rate not exactly been pushed. Of course the accused should have just stepped out of the way, instead of swearing and flapping, but it didn’t look as though she was either nimble or quick witted.

I heard on the radio news there will be an appeal.

@whatsup00 I understand what you are saying particularly in regard to dug addiction related crimes. However prison is not just about rehabilitation, it's also to punish, to contain, to demonstrate to others. Justice is a wide ranging and without prison society would disintegrate. There must be consequences to aggressive actions and this was undoubtedly an aggressive action to an older woman in a vulnerable situation riding so close to the road. The disabled woman was not severely disabled, and I would say of the two an elderly woman on a bike near a busy road, as opposed to a tall powerful looking woman striding along the path, was not the vulnerable one.

cyclists are not supposed to be riding on the pavement anyway

It was shared cycleway. The victim had ever right to be cycling on the pavement and apportioning blame to the deceased is frankly victim blaming.

And lets not forget that after causing the death of Celia Ward - Auriol Gray left before emergency services arrived and went shopping.

That's cold - anyway you look at it.

The woman was sort of flapping her arms at the cyclist thinking she would be hit by the cycle. The cyclist must have veered out of the way, or at any rate not exactly been pushed.

She wasn't 'flapping'. She was making clear directional movement towards the road, at the same time as shouting 'get off the fucking pavement'. She then hesitates and extends her arm when the cyclist is alongside her.

If you watch the video slowly, as has been pointed out, the cyclists front wheel doesn't change direction until her back wheel is already in line with the pedestrian. Had she veered, it wouldn't have been straight up until that point, it would have been pointing towards the road as she passes.

That's cold - anyway you look at it.

Why are you expecting her to react ‘normally’ when she does not have a normal person’s mental or physical capacity?

@ScrollingLeaves I'm sure her mental capacity and intellectual ability would have been taken into account at trial as the charges were so serious? My DS has cerebral palsy and it's unreasonable to say CP affects all people in a way that makes them aggressive. It's also not an excuse. Plenty of people (we've all seen road rage drivers reacting aggressively) have issues with impulse control. It cannot be a defence in law that you behave in an aggressive manner. If she had been deemed incapable of making a rational choice as in the McNaughton rules, then the defence would have used this.

Her actions caused the death of another person.
I’m comfortable with the result of the court case.
She’ll serve 18 months and then be on probation for a further 18 months.

Was it stated that she doesn't have mental capacity? I believe the judge stated that her disabilities didn't affect her understanding of right and wrong. They're purely physical.

Something may well have gone wrong with her defence, maybe there was no expert witness about her condition, no expert witness about the city highways and their markings or lack there of.

Or the jury may have been prejudiced, because she didn’t behave like ‘normal’ people when she walked away. Her face may have looked blank and remorseless.

Also why is the path not marked for cycles and pedestrians? What about the city council’s responsibility? None of us go out and about expecting a cycle to come towards us on a footpath unexpectedly.

Also why is the path not marked for cycles and pedestrians?

Apparently it is, but you don't see it in the section of street in the video footage.

“ReneBumsWombats “· Today 11:07
“Was it stated that she doesn't have mental capacity? I believe the judge stated that her disabilities didn't affect her understanding of right and wrong. They're purely physical.”

No they are not purely physical.

Police inquiries failed to establish whether the pavement was a shared cycle-way or not. Today Judge Sean Enright, passing sentence, said he acknowledged the partial blindness, cognitive and mobility issues and cerebral palsy that the "childlike" Ms Grey suffered from.

Despite this, he added: "It does not reduce your understanding of right or wrong. You have not expressed a word about remorse until today in the pre-sentencing notes. I accept the explanation from the counsel and that the difficulty you would face in custody and afterwards are considerable

That was from
www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/shocking-moment-disabled-woman-swears-8206731

There are judges who sometimes make ill informed judgements. They are not experts in complicated life long illnesses and impairments symptoms, including not only cognitive impairments but also possible autism (often undiagnosed in women).

ReneBumsWombats · Today 11:20
Also why is the path not marked for cycles and pedestrians?

Apparently it is, but you don't see it in the section of street in the video footage.

So especially as she was partially sighted, there was nothing for her to see in the way of markings where she was, even if her eye-sight had been better.

Also, this reports says the police were not sure whether or not it was a shared cycle/pedestrian path.
Police inquiries failed to establish whether the pavement was a shared cycle-way or not (Hull Daily Mail)

So if the police did not know,
how would this person know- especially to the extent of warranting the judge to say “Surely you knew it was shared” to this particular woman?

Fair enough. I do see your point as well. Thanks for being able to have a discussion not an argument. I guess there does have to be some form of deterrant. It's just I have seen prison take people who were decent and made one mistake (gf of friend who did something v stupid when drunk, a genuinely nice, decent person) and turn her into... i don't even know how to describe it apart from hardened and not her. She also lost everything in there and came out with a few quid and homeless, i don't know if she ever got back on track (not in contact any more).

The woman is, apparently, well known in her local area for behaving antisocially and aggressively towards both pedestrians and cyclists, including children, when she wants them to get out of her way and had previously been warned over it by the police. She therefore isn’t a poor helpless disabled woman fearful for her life.

She pushed an elderly woman into the road where she got run over. Not seeing how that's an accident. Would you push someone under the wheels if a car for absolutely no reason other than that you were feeling aggressive that day?

Not being sure of the status of the path is no reason to kill someone though. Even if it was pedestrian only path it does not give you the right to kill someone for cycling on it. You could report them to the police and that is your only recourse.