Pronouns annoyance

[crochetmonkey74]

I support every human being having the right to be who they are. This is not a bashing thread but I do want views on this.
Today , my friend messaged something about a non binary celeb. I replied with "I like him I think he's great" she then sent a text lecture about misgendering.
I actually didn't do it deliberately. My thoughts are these though: how can you insist on how others (who you will never hear or even know about) talk about you?
I agree with referring to people however they want you to in real life of course, am I just being a grumpy old bag? I genuinely want to get better at understanding the pronoun thing. What are your thoughts?

It’s not the same thing.
Firstly I would sincerely doubt one adult would correct another by text for not referring to someone by their current preferred shortening of their actual name. The friend didn’t need to correct her at all.
Secondly, pronouns aren’t the same as a nickname. By saying call me Dan instead of Daniel please you aren’t saying ignore my physical reality and the binary nature of sex and refer to me as a mythical non sexed person please. There is a huge gulf of a difference between the two things and it’s disingenuous to say otherwise.

Does that apply to every harmful notion your kids have?

Are you talking to me? After I explained I'm not talking about my own teens? Gender identity in teens is often tied in with a bunch of other issues and I think it would be inappropriate for adults who are at arm's length to get involved.

I don’t think any one is the enemy. We will have to disagree. The problem is rolling eyes is to a degree what has gotten us to this stage and the particular effect on vast swathes of teenage girls has been to see them condemned to sadness and confusion during their youth because adults are refusing to tell them the truth. In the extreme cases this leads to hormones which can ruin their health and fertility and double mastectomies.

Are you talking to me? After I explained I'm not talking about my own teens? Gender identity in teens is often tied in with a bunch of other issues and I think it would be inappropriate for adults who are at arm's length to get involved.

I agree that there are often many other issues when teens claim to be "trans" or "non binary". Which is why it's important to maintain appropriate boundaries IMO. Why have you used a story about some random teens you know to put down women on this thread who aren't prepared to lie about people's sex?

Interesting article.. though didn't help my insomnia😀

Don't conflate using preferred pronouns with agreeing that men can change sex and should be allowed into women's bathrooms.

It's all part of it. Read the suggested below. it's a very astute essay about "preferred pronouns".

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns

If you biological sex was Jane and you insisted that it was Dora, then you should seek help with your mental health, rather than blaming your friend.

"I want to be alert. I want others to be alert. I want people to see the real picture, and I want those instinctive reactions that we feel when something is wrong, to be un-blunted, un-dulled by this cheap but effective psychological trick. I feel like I owe this to myself, and I absolutely owe it to other women.

And more than anything, I owe this to girls. I don’t want to play even the tiniest part in grooming them to disregard their natural protective instincts. Those instincts are there for a reason. To keep them safe. They need those instincts intact, and sharp.

And that’s why I won’t use preferred pronouns."

Barra Kerr (Barracker)

YANBU.

People can choose whatever pronouns they want to be referred by but I can choose not to pander to delusions.

I think it’s really arrogant when, for example, it’s someone in the workplace and out of the 60 or so people you work with in the building you must remember Precious Snowflake and always bear in mind, amongst all the other shot you have to deal with every day, to pretend out loud they’re something they’re not.

I'm not. I'm saying, in my head at least, calling people what they ask you to is not the same as lying about sex. The example given by OP was identifying as non binary so I'm relating my real life experiences of that, which are all in teenagers.

With 4 young adults of our own this issue is literally all around me. I campaign against gender ideology at a societal level. On an individual level, I do not want to express views that may harm a confused and vulnerable teenager, nor do I want to be a parent that my own kids can't talk to if they themselves become confused.

I understand and respect that others see it differently, but do wonder if they are faced with the reality of living with 'Mary is now Archer' on what feels like a weekly basis, when Mary/Archer is in your house most days and you know they've got a raft of other mental health issues.

You cannot argue with biology. It's utter nonsense and I have the right to live in reality. A scientific and biological reality. Pronouns are a concept akin to the tale of the Emperor's New Clothes.

Thank you, Mumsnet. You’ve done what no other thread could do and exhausted me enough to sleep.

OP - no, you did nothing wrong, your friend didn’t need to lecture you on it and I highly doubt whoever you were talking about gives a flying flip what pronoun someone they don’t know from Adam refers to them by. Unless you were calling them on their acting/singing/comedy/entertaining skills (or whatever their career is). It’s tough to remember with non-binary as well, if they are still presenting as one gender. People getting offended on behalf of other people they don’t even know…sheesh. That always annoys me. I like to get offended on my own account thankyouverymuch!

You sound like you really want to explore this and would always try and support people in the way they would like to be supported. I think everyone should be more like you 😊

😃😃😃

"If you biological sex was Jane and you insisted that it was Dora, then you should seek help with your mental health, rather than blaming your friend."

The OP doesn't know anything about this person's opinion on their biological sex. They haven't been asked their opinion on the person's biological sex. The OP has been asked by someone else to use a different pronoun. It's a noun. Just like a Forename and Surname is a noun, which people change all the time. It's not a big deal to go wrong when saying someone's name, especially if they have changed it, but it's not a difficult to remember.

I recently changed my last name. If someone else had used my old name to my friend, I'd hope my friend would very politely correct them. If someone was deliberately using the wrong name, (Ms Smith not Miss Jones) it would be bit bizarre and after a while disrespectful.

Trans and non binary people are not going anywhere. It costs nothing to use manners, and everyone would rub along better if people used them. Pick your battles.

By that logic then, it shouldn’t matter to trans and non binary people how others refer to them, according to you it’s a nothing anyway of no consequence, it’s just a noun. So if that’s the case why does someone who doesn’t believe in gender ideology have to comply with it? I treat everyone I meet with respect, I expect the same respect to be given to me and my beliefs. ‘Pick your battles’ LOL

I'm saying, in my head at least, calling people what they ask you to is not the same as lying about sex.

Sometimes "calling people what they ask you to" in any sense is reasonable, and sometimes it isn't. We all have our limits. I'm sure most of the preferred pronouns advocates here would balk at having to remember neopronouns for ten people, or pronouns that change according to the person's mood. All things expected by some.

And yes it is the same as lying about sex. In my head. Read the Barra Kerr piece.

Trans and non binary people are not going anywhere.

Nor are women who won't roll over on demand to cater to power tripping.

Actually race is a social construct, like gender so, you're right, it's not different.
If you lived in the American south and were the child of a black slave and white slaveowner, you may well be born with pale skin yet you would indeed be identified as black (the one drop rule) even if you appeared as white.

Gender and sex are different. You can't change your sex, that's true, but you can change your gender. Pronouns, like gender, are social, not biological.

I'm not a gender ideology fanatic - having gone through puberty as a male or a female leads to very different biological outcomes, that's just a fact that can't be ignored. But, for the most part, with some exceptions, how people operate in society can be accommodated by how they identify. These are complex issues as human societies are complex so it's not going to be black and white.

I have a friend who transitioned. i knew him as a woman but he was clearly unhappy in that gender (and I met him first about 25 years ago so before this was accepted as it its today). Is his biological sex female? Of course, no one is denying reality. But he lives as a man and, honestly, it totally suits him. If you met him now, you would probably not even be able to guess. And I don't see why it would be anyone's business to do so (again with some limited exceptions).

the idea that I would insist on using female pronouns to speak to him is just absurd and would be really hurtful. And it doesn't fit to speak about him either, at least not now. In the beginning, it happened unintentionally, including using his previous name too. But now it just fits him, it's not forced. But more than that, why would I hurt him by insisting on misgendering him?

But more than that, why would I hurt him by insisting on misgendering him?

It's not all about you. You can do what you like that you think is best, and so can everyone else. I don't really agree with you or think society should pander to this ideology, but so what? That's me, you do you, and I will do me.

So if that’s the case why does someone who doesn’t believe in gender ideology have to comply with it?

You don't have to, but other people have the right to think you're being rude and ask you to refer to them as X. If you continue to refer to other people in ways that they do not wish to be addressed, don't be surprised when people do not like it, and call you out, or cut you off.

I don't believe in a God but when I go to churcg with my auld granny I don't refer to Him as 'That Twat'. I call the priest Father Paul (eg.) not Mr Griffon. If I did it deliberately and persistently, I'd be kicked out or chastised.

Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences and it never has been. Go ahead and call anybody whatever you like, but it's true that there are people who care about it very much, and you run the risk of being mildly chastised, like the OP.

I don’t think anyone is insisting you must refer to your friend of 25 years as a woman. The issue is with compulsion. You say you can’t tell your friend was born a woman so I doubt there would be much issue with people referring to them as a woman. It becomes more complex when you have an unknown person who you can see is a man or a woman who insists that you should have to refer to them by the opposite sex pronoun. It’s entirely counter intuitive. You are asking people to disbelieve what they know is true. Similarly non-binary does not exist except as a gender concept. No one is neither male or female, everyone is one or the other. Asking others who can see you are a woman to refer to you as they is again asking people to lie.
I’m not even getting in to the race aspect here. It’s grossly insulting to people who are victims of rascism to say race is a social construct and use the racist ideas of a racist system to illustrate that. Ethnicity is real, if that’s a term you would prefer, and like sex is determinable, right down to your dna.

THIS !!
I don't understand the 'they/them' term being used for a singular person. I've always thought 'It' would be the word needed here.

"opposite sex pronoun"

What does that mean? Is she/her etched on to my DNA?