To pull away from my close friendship because of her kids

[abouttimeforu]

My close friendship is with my sister. We are extremely close. My child can be very challenging , currently waiting on ASD assessment , attention seeking and has a hard time managing his anger although this has improved greatly .
My child struggles socially and doesn't have many friends.
He is also so kind and loving, very sensitive , thoughtful and funny He is 11.

My sister's two children are by and large, rude and moody. Their mother will often put this down to tiredness and hunger but reality is they are actually just rude and moody, mostly

They will engage with my child when there's no other option but if there are other kids around, they will practically ignore him.
So for example if we were grouping up for an activity, they will purposely say that they want to do x with 'Jen' and completely omit to mention my child's name or include him.
Despite him being the only one left out.
My sister does not intervene or correct them. I would be disgusted if my kids did this and very ashamed tbh.

Her attitude is that they don't have to socialise with people they don't want to socialise with .... until they have no one else and then ask to socialise with my
Child .He has been too available .. my fault.

To me he seems only good enough for them as a stand in but tbh I'm highly sensitive about this issue and biased.
I am very protective of himSo at times I am guilty of overthinking and over reacting when it comes to how I view his interactions with others , when In fact, he is absolutely fine with being on his own sometimes.

My child is always with me when we see my sister and her family. I generally make the effort more as her kids are younger and I have the time.

I think that for my sons self esteem and general happiness, I need to move away from the intensity of the contact , when with my child. He craves their attention and his self worth is so low that he will tolerate being second choice or not a choice at all, as the case may be.
This has only developed recently and I'm
Disgusted if I'm honest but then again , I'm highly sensitive when it comes to him.

My sister has zero insight with her own kids and has never once stepped in and said to her children, for example, to include my child or insist that he be part of a specific group that they were creating. They feel
Very Comfortable leaving him out and she feels very comfortable enabling that .
So, can you advise me here. I really need objectivity thanks.

I will add again that I can be very defensive as he was always labelled the 'troublemaker' which he was mostly, but not always, and always the one that was blamed when there was trouble among them... again, it was mostly him but not always. He has that label now though sadly as it has stuck.
Thanks .

There’s be nice don’t leave little jimmy out because he has strange to you ideas about play or favourite things.

Then there’s oh no sweeties yes I no jimmy shouts at you and has violent outbursts but you must play with him even if a lot of times you get shouted at or hurt. It would be rude not to.

Some of the attitudes on here are unrealistic. While it's awful that so many neurodiverse children struggle socially, it's totally unreasonable to ask and expect other children and parents to put themselves/their children in harm's way so that a neurodiverse child doesn't feel left out. As a teacher, I've found it so challenging and heartbreaking over the years to see the loneliness of neurodiverse children whose behaviour pushes other children away, but there really is only so much you can ask of other children in terms of kindness, patience and understanding before their own needs need to come first.

Yes, like the majority on the thread, you feel that NT children are more important. Thank fuck there are people who are committed to focusing on and improving life for disabled individuals. They're just not on this thread. 😆

Do you have any other friends at all?

This is why families are so difficult, I have a lot of sisters, there are 5 of us . I have always got on much better with two of them than the other two. This was not a choice we just have more in common than just DNA. Actual friends that you choose can mean so much more to you than family.

I do feel very sorry for your DS but sounds like he upset them a lot in the past.I actually think other comments about why would you put your DS through it are valid. I think overall backing away would be good.

@NumberTheory has made a really decent post.

It is really really offensive to suggest that teaching children to be inclusive of differently abled children means they will have poor boundaries and be prey to abusers as adults.

Being inclusive and kind to everyone should be encouraged.

Putting up with shitty behaviour regardless of whether they are ND or not, should NOT be encouraged.

I hate the idea that if someone is ND they are allowed to be badly behaved or treat someone like shit and it’s offensive if you say that someone doesn’t deserve to be treated like that.

How many threads are there on here where women are in abusive relationships and then say her DH is ND or other posters say he could be and it completely excuses his behaviour.

There are so many people who are ND or who have trauma but just haven’t been officially diagnosed.
OP’s nieces and nephews could have ND which is why they’re moody.
OP’s child hasn’t even had an official diagnosis yet either, so to suggest that he can have challenging behaviour and be aggressive is ok but for the sisters children to not want to play with him isn’t, is not ok and its not being inclusive to them.

If you want children to be kind and inclusive then that needs to include everyone, not just the one that is suspected of being ND.

All of the children I work with have ND.
None of them are forced to play with anyone who is challenging or aggressive.

Not only would this teach them poor boundaries (and ND children often need to be taught about their own boundaries more than NT children).
But it also doesn’t help the child who is aggressive, if they think they can act like that but still say who plays with them and when.

There is a fine line between being kind and inclusive vs having no boundaries and putting up with inappropriate behaviour.

Teaching your kids to not have boundaries with someone because that person could potentially have ND is not ok.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

No one is more important than anyone else. What is important, though, is people's wellbeing and safety.

If a ND child's social interactions consist of constantly hitting other children, where would you draw the line at expecting other children to put up with being hit, kicked and so on?

It's not about privileging 'NT' (if such a thing exists) over 'ND' children. It's about ensuring safety and wellbeing. No one - no matter what needs they have - has the right to hurt someone else, and no one - no matter what needs they have - should have to accept being hurt by someone else.

So you think some children should put themselves in harms way because if they don't they're being seen as 'more important'?

So you think some children should put themselves in harms way because if they don't they're being seen as 'more important'?

Oh yeah, that's completely what I said 🙄

I'm not even really talking about what children should or shouldn't do, I'm talking about adults' attitudes. Stop pretending there isn't a whole lot of ableist shit on this thread.

This is difficult to solve because you are both right and it is also common with siblings.

So for example, my 2 DDs will be happy to hang out together but if one of them has a friend round then they would rather be with their friend & sibling is excluded.

It sounds like your DS benefits from having cousins that he feels safe with. So perhaps you could carry on with the situations where he isn’t excluded- presumably when it’s just the 3 kids, but avoid larger gatherings?

I agree that just because they are cousins this does not mean they are good friends.
Many, many family members do not get on.
I would pull back too. Perhaps your sister is being polite and not telling you that actually, her dcs don’t like your son that much.

Why is everyone saying about neurodiversity or autism or SEND or disabled ? The child hasn’t even been diagnosed as any of these. He’s on a waiting list for assessment, that’s all.

Why is this ableist? As this is the post you are saying is.
While it's awful that so many neurodiverse children struggle socially, it's totally unreasonable to ask and expect other children and parents to put themselves/their children in harm's way so that a neurodiverse child doesn't feel left out.
The aggression and swearing isn't making your point clear.

I think these children need to be kept apart. There is no natural friendship between them and trying to force it especially at their ages is not going to work. The best that will happen is his cousins will tolerate your DS when the adults are around. They won't like him any more than they currently do, and he will no doubt be aware of that.
Whether you make this about you and your sister is up to you. You could keep the children apart and continue a relationship with her outside of that, even if only by message or phone. This is just a stage of your life long relationship with her and there will be many years ahead after your children are grown up where you might be glad you didn't let this destroy your friendship.

Wrong again. I have not singled out one particular post.

'Aggression and swearing' 😆 do you mean where I said 'thank fuck?' I love this place

I'm not even really talking about what children should or shouldn't do, I'm talking about adults' attitudes. Stop pretending there isn't a whole lot of ableist shit on this thread.

Well most people are talking about what children should or shouldn't do. You're talking about what preoccupies you and see everything through that lens. That makes sense now, but doesn't mean people here should be the target for your anger. Ironic really. When we're talking about putting up with people having to tolerate someone else's angry outbursts or not.

@AllOfThemWitches yes you have. You have responded to @EnidSpyton directly saying Yes, like the majority on the thread, you feel that NT children are more important. Thank fuck there are people who are committed to focusing on and improving life for disabled individuals. They're just not on this thread. 😆

you feel like.

(Sorry Enid for the tag!)

Anger? Jesus wept.

Yes, that's how her post comes across. She's far from the only one. Mumsnet is known for its intolerance of people with disabilities.

It's a shame this thread has been derailed by one person.

Any chance of getting it back on track? I'm sure the OP doesn't want to read pages of bickering and squabbling when they get back.

Anyway, at this point I can't say anything without a certain couple of posters jumping on and twisting it so I'm out. I maintain that teaching your kids to be aware of disabilities and differences from a young age benefits everyone.

As this behaviour from the children has only happened recently and their mother, despite being extremely close to her sister, is apparently oblivious, I have a sneaking suspicion that the reality is that she is not remotely oblivious and the children, now they are old enough to start thinking that they shouldn’t always have to go along with their parents’ social arrangements, have started expressing behind the scenes to their mother their upset that they have to see quite so much of their aunt and cousin. This is an arrangement that is down to the close relationship of the sisters, not of the cousins, after all. It is not easy to say to your sister that your children are being rude and moody because they are upset that they are having to spend so much time in your company and are resentful their feelings are not being respected, so she pretends they are just tired and hungry and always behave like this, because she doesn’t want to see less of her sister, but knows that telling her children off publicly will just result in things she does not want aired publicly being expressed in openly unkind ways. Behind the scenes she probably is telling her children to be kinder and more thoughtful, because they do love their cousin and can play nicely together when they get together in smaller doses, but what they want is less time spent making that effort and if this sentiment continues to be ignored, the OP is right that it will be harmful to everyone. It would be such a shame if relationships are ruined in the long term when the only real problem is that everyone is just seeing a bit too much of each other.

These threads always get hijacked by posters trying to find things to be offended about.

Op, I think you just need to keep your distances. It is obvious the kids do not enjoy the company of each other and you really can’t force a friendship, much less so when the kids are entering teenage.

This doesn’t mean you need to cut your sister off, especially if you are close, just meet with her without kids.

Ho did you get THAT from what the poster said?!

It doesn’t change the other kids’ experience, and after interacting for so many years, I would find it very hard to believe the possibility of special needs has not been suggested to them by their mother many many times.

My mother always went out of her way to be inclusive whatever it took: we saw our toys destroyed, were hit with rocks (I kid you not)and on occasion, when I was 12, I was repeatedly pestered by a kid a year older than me trying to kiss me and touch my breasts. They all had special needs but, I wish my mother had not forced us to be so bloody “understanding”, it was hell every single time.

I have a child with a disability now, he is a handful at times but it has also been my view that if he is to have friends, real friends, he has to reign over his own behaviour to ensure other kids enjoy spending time with him.

When he was younger, the best thing I could do was to watch him as a hawk and intervene if he was unpleasant to other kids or simply keep play dates short enough. I obviously expected good behaviour from the other kids towards my son as well, but never expected them to put up with misbehaviour because he has a disability. Interestingly, this has taught him that friendship goes both ways, respect is paid back with respect.

DS has grown up into a considerate young man, has plenty of friends and is able to maintain his own friendships. I don’t think this would have happened if I had not insisted on him learning how to interact with people. I won’t say it was easy, I was bloody exhausted most of the time and walking on eggshells but it has paid off at the end (for now).