To think the language of ‘choice’ is not always helpful

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Of course access to contraception and reproductive health services is a Very Good Thing and is linked in clear and obvious ways to improvements in health and economic outcomes for women globally.

But there is an interesting side effect of the language of ‘choice’ that comes as a result of this access. In previous generations pregnancy and raising children was more or less inevitable for women, but now for a couple of generations we’ve been able to get used to the idea that it is a choice whether or not to try to become pregnant and whether or not to keep a pregnancy and raise a family.

The way we talk about this ‘choice’ effects those women who struggle the most with pregnancy, childbirth and parenting.

When a woman in a stable relationship chooses to try to become pregnant, succeeds in a reasonable timeframe, has a healthy and more or less comfortable pregnancy, survives childbirth with minimal scarring and goes on to raise healthy, able-bodied, neuro-typical children, we celebrate her choice, even though most of those elements are down to luck more than judgement.

When a woman actively chooses not to have children, succeeds in avoiding pregnancy, and continues to feel she made the right choice by the time she is menopausal, we celebrate her choice. This is perhaps more sensible as most of the elements here are at least within the woman’s control!

When a woman chooses to become pregnant outside of a stable relationship, or outside of a very comfortable standard of living, and decides to keep the baby, we question her choice- it may be foolish or naive- and use this as a reason to withhold support.

When a woman suffers illness or injury during pregnancy, such as HG or SPD or gestational diabetes, or is simply too tired and achey and indegestion-y and hormonal to make it through the day, we remind her that pregnancy is a choice she made and so withhold sympathy and support.

When a woman suffers terrible birth injuries we remind her that pregnancy was her choice, and she should have accounted for these possibilities in making her choice.

When a child is not healthy, able-bodied or neuro-typical we remind the mother that no one obliged her to carry her children to term, that it is reasonable to abort if you feel unable to cope with caring for a disabled child (though not everyone has this ‘opportunity’) and that it is highly unfair to expect society to pick up the burden created by one woman’s reproductive choices. We use this as an excuse to withhold support and empathy.

So Aibu to think the language of ‘choice’ is not always helpful to women.

@CupidCantAimStraight I’m so sorry people were so dreadfully rude to you. That’s such an unkind thing to say. Your choice is entirely valid and you don’t deserve to be vilified for it

I do see where you're coming from - I just disagree that people have been using abortion techniques in the way you describe. Pregnancy was more or less inevitable for women. Abortion didn't really work - or if it did, it usually resulted in dead women. Believe it or not, the gruesome image of pre-legalisation abortion you get in fiction like Call the Midwife is actually much, much less unpleasant than the generality of practices women resorted to in attempts to get rid of pregnancies.

I do see you weren't intending to be glib, and I'm sorry I misunderstood that. I just don't think pre-legal abortion is a good example of women 'asserting agency'.

Out of context I can see how it reads, and I did a poor job of expressing myself in that. I don’t blame you for misunderstanding. I would have done the same.

I don’t mean ‘asserting agency’ in the throwaway sense of ‘go girl, you’re empowered!’, I mean they asserted agency as a result of the desperation and they felt, being in position that meant they risked horrific injury and death rather than do what society deemed they must as women.

My main point is/was that abortion wasn’t suddenly invented in the 20th century, and isn’t a modern concept at all. Pregnancy and childbirth being inevitable was never a good thing, and harking back to that as somehow preferable to an era where choice is recognized is frankly dangerous (and wrong. Compassion and support for women was never a notable feature of these times). Abortion rights were hard fought, hard won, and have to be hard defended.

We can absolutely agree on that! (And thank you for being so courteous.)

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman - I wouldn't punish someone for the unintended consequences of a choice or bully them to make "better" choices when they don't have the means - but I do think we have turned into a society of victims. People aren't encouraged to think things through or don't want to because we've created a society where everyone "has the right" to do what they want and can have what they want when they want it. (That supports capitalism). And the "unintended" but highly likely consequences are always someone else's' fault.

Hi @pinkySilver , that’s a good point about capitalism and instant gratification, and I agree that thinking about family life and pregnancy from an expectation of instant gratification is going to be really problematic.

I do think though, that most women are not entering into pregnancy expecting instant gratification. I think most do think very carefully about each decision that’s in their power to make.

I think that the problem is that the idea of ‘choice’ leads so quickly to the ‘ideal choice’ - which doesn’t really exist - and to an instinct to blame and place fault. In the case of pregnancy and child rearing, an ability and willingness to ‘think things through’ isn’t enough to prevent terrible outcomes, but we consistently pretend that it is.

@SarahAndQuack and @whumpthereitis it was really interesting to read your discussion. I did gloss over a lot by saying that pregnancy was more or less inevitable in previous generations. I do think that is correct, but I agree that lots of awful things including infanticide and fatal abortion attempts are covered over by that phrase. My main intention was to highlight the comparative ease of access in recent generations- which is still far from perfect of course.

I’m not trying to say that lack of choice would be better or describe previous generations’ experience as superior, but I don’t think the (supposed) availability of choice is a sufficient and complete answer. And it is horribly ironic the way that (theoretical, let’s remember, not always practically accessible) possibility of choice is then used against very vulnerable women and children to blame and shame them. In order to defend abortion rights and reproductive choice, I think part of that needs to include awareness over the language we use and it’s effects.

*its. Cheers autocorrect 🙄

When a woman in a stable relationship chooses to try to become pregnant, succeeds in a reasonable timeframe, has a healthy and more or less comfortable pregnancy, survives childbirth with minimal scarring and goes on to raise healthy, able-bodied, neuro-typical children, we celebrate her choice, even though most of those elements are down to luck more than judgement.
Do we?
I'm not sure why you are nitpicking over the luck of having a healthy child. Is that not what every parent wishes for?

When a woman actively chooses not to have children, succeeds in avoiding pregnancy, and continues to feel she made the right choice by the time she is menopausal, we celebrate her choice. This is perhaps more sensible as most of the elements here are at least within the woman’s control!
Do we?
Women often endure decades of criticism for not having children.

When a woman chooses to become pregnant outside of a stable relationship, or outside of a very comfortable standard of living, and decides to keep the baby, we question her choice- it may be foolish or naive- and use this as a reason to withhold support.
Do we?
Who exactly is this "we" you are pointing the finger at?

When a woman suffers illness or injury during pregnancy, such as HG or SPD or gestational diabetes, or is simply too tired and achey and indegestion-y and hormonal to make it through the day, we remind her that pregnancy is a choice she made and so withhold sympathy and support.
Do we?
I think you need to start speaking for yourself & not others.

When a woman suffers terrible birth injuries we remind her that pregnancy was her choice, and she should have accounted for these possibilities in making her choice.
Do we?
Really? How many people have you heard say this?

When a child is not healthy, able-bodied or neuro-typical we remind the mother that no one obliged her to carry her children to term, that it is reasonable to abort if you feel unable to cope with caring for a disabled child (though not everyone has this ‘opportunity’) and that it is highly unfair to expect society to pick up the burden created by one woman’s reproductive choices. We use this as an excuse to withhold support and empathy.
Do we?
Who are all these critical characters, & how many of them do you know in real life?
Maybe, instead of inventing fictional mass criticism of women's individual reproductive choices, you could focus on your own responses. If you genuinely find these responses everywhere in real life, maybe you need to find nicer, more open-minded friends.

The only criticism I’ve seen on MN is of women who choose to have more children with a man they already know is a shit partner and father.

My GP for one! Apparently it's normal to have a gaping wound where my episiotomy stitches burst open due to infection and I just need to get on with it. Won't refer me to gynae unless I've been in pain with it for at least 6 months. Same with my stage 4 haemorrhoids, apparently it's fine to just be walking around with my arse hanging out and fecal incontinence. So I'd say they're withholding any kind of support for my birth injuries. I won't even get into the mental trauma I'm carrying from my horrendous labour because I just get told I'm lucky to have a healthy baby.

I’m so sorry you’re going through that @rickandmorts, having a healthy baby, while obviously good in itself, doesn’t negate your needs. Help is possible for each of those conditions but you shouldn’t have to fight for it in a vulnerable and exhausted state

Thank you. And you're so right. My DP keeps saying I need to make another GP appt but I just don't have it in me to be on hold for 30 mins to get through to them and then get me and baby to the surgery, wait for ages in the waiting room to have a 5 min appt and be told I'm fine and just to give it more time 😔

@KimberleyClark there is a ‘pregnancy is a choice not an illness’ thread in full swing on trending right now…

Also, why do we assume criticism of choices is a reasonable response at all on mumsnet? If someone is struggling and asking for help, even anonymously, telling them they chose their own problem isn’t going to do any good for anyone.

@rickandmorts it sounds like your baby is still really young? If you are not yet discharged by the midwife service that might be a route to try, I’ve found it more help than the GP in the past. And the ‘birth debrief’ service most maternity wards offer is helpful too. for you and hoping your experience of motherhood gets better xx

She's 10 weeks old, we've been discharged to the health visitor now. Although when I was still under the midwives they didn't want to know either, I think the services where I live are really stretched 😢. I'm building up to asking for my hospital notes and to have a birth debrief but I'm not ready to go over them just yet. Baby is luckily really easy and an absolute delight but if she were colicky or hardwork I'd be absolutely broken! Thanks for your reply x

I agree that women are criticised for their reproductive choices frequently, but this was the case back in the days when there were far fewer choices as well. It's the Madonna/W*ore dichotomy which has never really gone away.

I do think that, while access to legal, safe abortion is, on balance, a good thing, the availability of abortion makes some women feel pressured to have one when they aren't sure they want to. I've many times seen people who call themselves pro-choice criticise a woman for a choice to keep a child in a situation they wouldn't choose to keep a child in. To me, that's not pro-choice, it's judgement.

I also think we have fewer choices than we think we have. Contraception isn't 100% and is subject to user error; women can be in abusive relationships where their access is curtailed, or they can be raped; abortions aren't always the easy option and some people don't feel comfortable with them. At the end of the day, as women, our lives are still dominated by our reproductive systems - by the risk of getting pregnant - and I think we do ourselves a disservice if we don't respect that.

I believe that statistically women are more likely to be coerced into becoming and/or staying pregnant than they are to be coerced into abortion. I’ve also seen on here women be encouraged to keep a pregnancy they’re unsure of or don’t won’t, and women criticized for having an abortion after an unplanned pregnancy. For the most part though, people give advice according to what they think best/would do, and I don’t think suggesting an abortion is any more reasonable or unreasonable than suggesting having a baby.

Outside of situations where women are denied access, it is a choice. Recognizing that it’s a choice isn’t the same thing as saying it’s necessarily easy choice, or one that doesn’t potentially involve hardship.

Judgement is a separate issue to choice. People judge and are judged for a multitude of reasons. Removing or restricting choice won’t change that.

I don't agree with you on any of this but wondered where you're getting the statistics from?

We don't live in a culture where men particularly want women to have lots of babies anymore.

MN is very quick to encourage termination, much more so than continuing a pregnancy.

I’ve said what I’ve observed. I don’t require you to agree 🤷🏻‍♀️

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/pregnancy-coercion-reproduction-abortion-a8834306.html

“While some eight per cent of women have experienced pressure to become pregnant, seven per cent of women have been pushed into having an abortion, the research by polling company D-Cyfor concluded.“

@bathsh3ba I think you make some really good points-
we have fewer choices than we think we have, our lives are still dominated by our reproductive systems however much we might wish otherwise, and people will often criticise rather than support if a woman makes a different (thus ‘wrong’) choice

I wonder what could be done to break the link between the idea of choice and the immediate leap to judgement of that choice. I think calling fewer things a ‘choice’ would be a start. If instead of saying ‘You chose to have a child so own it’ how would it be different if we said ‘Well your child is here so what solutions are available to a mother in your position…’?

@whumpthereitis you say ‘Judgement is a separate issue to choice. People judge and are judged for a multitude of reasons. Removing or restricting choice won’t change that.’

I think I said early on in the thread that I’m not interested in removing or restricting choice, but in the language we use to talk about it and the (unintended?) consequences of the language we use.

I think the concept of choice is used a lot to gloss over the hardship involved in all available choices.

The word ‘choice’ doesn’t make a value judgement on ease or hardship. Recognizing something is a choice doesn’t mean you think it was therefore to make, but that if was yours to make.

If we recognize and/or value autonomy, what are we supposed to ascribe it to? And what are the consequences of that?

my point is that when it comes to judged women, or indeed people, aren’t just judged for having children, but for every reproductive choice they may make, and indeed for any choice they may make at all. Being judged for having children is not special in this regard, it’s just one more thing you can be judged on.

I do think, though, that reproductive choices are special in this regard, in that they are judged exceptionally harshly. Like my example above of the foodie with nirovirus.

I also think that the notion of choice invites that value judgement - good and bad choices- whereas, as @bathsh3ba pointed out, a lot of ‘choices’ are just not available to make in the first place.

So the very individualistic language we use - ‘the choice was yours to make, expect consequences, expect to be judged’ is very misplaced a lot of the time.

There are good and bad choices though. Do you not agree?