To think the language of ‘choice’ is not always helpful

[AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman]

Of course access to contraception and reproductive health services is a Very Good Thing and is linked in clear and obvious ways to improvements in health and economic outcomes for women globally.

But there is an interesting side effect of the language of ‘choice’ that comes as a result of this access. In previous generations pregnancy and raising children was more or less inevitable for women, but now for a couple of generations we’ve been able to get used to the idea that it is a choice whether or not to try to become pregnant and whether or not to keep a pregnancy and raise a family.

The way we talk about this ‘choice’ effects those women who struggle the most with pregnancy, childbirth and parenting.

When a woman in a stable relationship chooses to try to become pregnant, succeeds in a reasonable timeframe, has a healthy and more or less comfortable pregnancy, survives childbirth with minimal scarring and goes on to raise healthy, able-bodied, neuro-typical children, we celebrate her choice, even though most of those elements are down to luck more than judgement.

When a woman actively chooses not to have children, succeeds in avoiding pregnancy, and continues to feel she made the right choice by the time she is menopausal, we celebrate her choice. This is perhaps more sensible as most of the elements here are at least within the woman’s control!

When a woman chooses to become pregnant outside of a stable relationship, or outside of a very comfortable standard of living, and decides to keep the baby, we question her choice- it may be foolish or naive- and use this as a reason to withhold support.

When a woman suffers illness or injury during pregnancy, such as HG or SPD or gestational diabetes, or is simply too tired and achey and indegestion-y and hormonal to make it through the day, we remind her that pregnancy is a choice she made and so withhold sympathy and support.

When a woman suffers terrible birth injuries we remind her that pregnancy was her choice, and she should have accounted for these possibilities in making her choice.

When a child is not healthy, able-bodied or neuro-typical we remind the mother that no one obliged her to carry her children to term, that it is reasonable to abort if you feel unable to cope with caring for a disabled child (though not everyone has this ‘opportunity’) and that it is highly unfair to expect society to pick up the burden created by one woman’s reproductive choices. We use this as an excuse to withhold support and empathy.

So Aibu to think the language of ‘choice’ is not always helpful to women.

Yeah effects has been bugging me. Need an edit function!!

A pregnancy creates life it is not the same thing as buying a car, house holiday, supporting a team, choosing a political party

When having a baby the parents choices are affecting someone who did not ask to be born, their choices ultimately affect another

So yes people should make careful choices when it comes to having a baby and how they raise any children they have

This 💯
If you are choosing to have a child in these circumstances, then it is a very selfish choice, and you do have to live with the consequences of that decision

Hi OP, I Hinksey you're totally right. The language of 'choice' ignores a lot of context that shapes or precludes choices, and it devolves into victim blaming.

That has nothing to do with not wanting women to have choices. It's about the nature of the choices, and the ease of access to them, being misstated.

Posters on MN for a start.

Why did you have a child/children with this cock lodger?
Why did you have a child if you're on benefits?
Why did you have another child if your first was such hard work?
All questions asked on here frequently.

I once complained on a thread here about having a hard day with my kids. I was told that I shouldn't have had kids if I didn't want to spend my Saturdays doing home work with primary aged children. As if I could somehow magically push them back into my vagina and make them disappear again.

Those three questions are all legitimate, although fair enough if you didn't know he was a cocklodger to start with.

When a woman actively chooses not to have children, succeeds in avoiding pregnancy, and continues to feel she made the right choice by the time she is menopausal, we celebrate her choice.

Do we celebrate that choice?

At Christmas I was called, and I quote, a "selfish cow" for choosing not to have children. DP also doesn't want children. We were both independently of that mindset before we got together.

Despite the fact my children would have a 50/50 chance of disability, apparently I'm still selfish for not producing an entire litter of disabled children.

Saw this reel yesterday and it very much resonated
www.instagram.com/reel/Cof7ELmDNZ0/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Bottom line is, women can't win.

But then it could be debated that it's still with other individuals using the words to judge, plus if you use substitute words or language then others will most likely use a new variant instead to form the same judgement so then it's just word play but with the same or similar effects?

Everyone deserves support, it's just some people don't always realise the full effects of their choices and then others correct them on it.

Wow! That is such an odd response given having children is selfish, ultimately it is an act for the parent/s not the child

I think that's because the OP is American and assumes we treat women the same way the US does.

I agree with you but you'd be surprised how often childfree women are told they're selfish. It's rare for someone to be quite so rude to my face, but I've even heard arguments it's selfish if you don't raise the next generation of taxpayers, as if the UK's economic future depends on my uterus.

When you actively choose to get pregnant you are putting yourself at risk of many negative outcomes e.g. HG, SPD, miscarriage, stillbirth, birth injury, PND.

I had heard of HG but I absolutely didn't CHOOSE to get it. It was very unlikely, I had no reason to expect it would happen to me. Every other woman in my family vomited 0 times in pregnancy whereas I developed severe HG which lasted for 35 hellish weeks.

I have been told multiple times, when I dare to talk about its impact, that I made a choice (I.e so the fact I was completely and utterly miserable and debilitated for almost an entire year of my life doesn't matter).

Interestingly, I have never heard of anyone being told 'no sympathy, it was your CHOICE to get pregnant' when they have PND or, very sadly, suffer a loss yet those outcomes are much more likely than HG.

I think what OP and others like me can't stand is that feeling of being completely disregarded as silly women who made their bed and just need to lie in it. The only way to end my HG early was to have an abortion and I dare anyone to think about ending their planned and much longed for pregnancy due to unexpected, unlikely illness- that didn't feel like a viable option to me so I suffered through.

Gosh I find this bizarre. Dumb too, if you don't have kids then they're also not using any taxes either 🙄

Saturday night at mumsnet is word salad, really

If you think women choosing not to have children are celebrated you’re living in a very different world to mine.

I recognise very little of your post in fact. Beyond the clumsy twee dismissal of reproductive choice as ‘A Very Good Thing…….but’

You should tell them to f* off, if that’s their response to your HG. You seem to be surrounded by abominable people.

Also - my sympathies. I had what compared as mild to HG and needed medication as I couldn’t even drink water. It resolved by 15 weeks. I can’t imagine the hell HG is. Anyone that tries to minimise what you’ve gone through or dismiss it as a choice so suck it up is an awful person.

agree

Who is this 'we' you refer to. MN is full of people trying to make smart comments. You can find examples if you need them to suit your narrative- by ignoring the hundreds of compassionate responses that don't fit your narrative.

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman

I do think that contraceptive options were actually made for men. I think that contraception actually was made to make women sexually available to men.

HOWEVER.

I also think that abortion is a positive thing for women.

I do think the best sexual option for women is rejection.

@Pineapple9210 sexual activity is harmful to women.

Yes I agree with you @MissTrip82. The OP seems to be addressing the vast swathes of issues she is attempting to discuss from a distance, like an academic exercise. @AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman it comes across like you are testing a thesis which bears little or no relation to most people’s experience of life. Concepts rationalised without the real context of society and relationships as they actually are. Your point about women without children particularly does not square with the experiences in real life of the majority of women in that situation who are routinely demeaned, infantilised and disregarded in the main.

It's a choice that you stand by, whatever anyone says. If a drunk driver flips his car and is injured, you have the choice to go and help or go and lecture , before making sure they're ok. To me you help, but could judge in a silent way that you still save their life whatever

Most women, at least in the developed world, have access to contraception and have the freedom to choose whether they would like to have children or not, and if they become pregnant by accident, they can choose whether to continue with the pregnancy or not

Access and choice ate categorically not the same thing.

Maybe it is a good thing if we put more emphasis on the fact, yes it is a choice and then so many wouldn't just do it because they thought they should 🤷‍♀️