To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

[Stackss]

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

I despair for a society that puts greed and profit over health care

Isnt that exactly what the nurses are doing? Greed and personal profit over providing the healthcare they signed an employment contract committing themselves to perform.

That link for tax accountants is average not median

But exchange tax accountant for hedge fund manager if you like

Or you can just keep spouting nonsense

Staffing levels matter.

From RCN survey March 2022 -

The report highlighted that going into the Covid-19 pandemic in January 2020 73% of nursing staff surveyed said that staffing levels on their last shift were not sufficient to meet all the needs of the patients safely and effectively. In 2022, it said this had risen to 83%.
Other key findings included:
• 25% of shifts had the full number of planned registered nurses on shift.
• Around one in five (18%) respondents agreed they had enough time to provide the level of care they would like.
• 69% of respondents said that the nursing skills mix (the number and education experience of nurses working in clinical settings) was not appropriate.
• Around half (52%) of respondents said that students held supernumerary status (which means that education standards require that they are not to be counted in workforce numbers while learning), while 39% said they did not.
• 62% reported that patient care was compromised on their last shift, compared to 57% in 2020 and 53% in 2017.
• 81% felt that patient care was being compromised due to not having enough registered nurses on shift.
• 43% said that they had to leave necessary care undone due to a lack of time, an increase from 38% in 2020, and 26% in 2017. On shifts where 100% of planned registered nurses were present, around one in three (31%) reported that necessary care was still left undone due to a lack of time.
• One in five (21%) said they felt unable to raise their concerns.
• Half of respondents (51%) felt “demoralised”.
• 16% of respondents felt “fulfilled”.
• Almost two-thirds (61%) were unable to take the breaks they were supposed to have.
• 63% of respondents worked additional time. Of these, 77% were unpaid for these additional hours.
• 87% of Black respondents who worked within the NHS reported working unpaid additional time compared to 77% of respondents from a White British background.

Reflecting on these findings, the RCN said that they presented “a clear picture of unsustainable staffing levels in health and care services in the UK, in which it is not possible for patient safety to be protected”.

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-nursing-workforce-royal-college-of-nursing-report/

@Onnabugeisha

No.

I don't think asking for a competitive wage that is still comparatively very low in order to improve working conditions and pt care could ever be described as greed

There's also research that shows that every extra nurse reduces mortality rates

Of course staffing levels matter

I think perhaps @Onnabugeisha you did not see my post yesterday posing this little teaser.

If last year I could afford to buy 5 widgets a week, but this year I can only afford to buy 9 a fortnight, am I richer or poorer?

@Onnabugeisha I think I have worked out where the confusion lies. When you say nurses you are thinking of the people during the pandemic who made vast sums of money at the taxpayers expense buy selling useless PPE to the government at grossly overinflated prices because they were mates with a government minister.

The rest of us when we say nurses mean the people who work exceedingly hard day in day out to look after people who need their help in hospitals and other healthcare settings.

@Botw1 staffing levels only matter on days when @Onnabugeisha say they do, on other days they are unimportant.

Its all a bit like mixing with people socially is bad and will kill granny, except when Boris and Rishi do it, then it is just fine.

@Onnabugeisha How would address Nurses leaving the NHS and how would attract more young people to become nurses, when they can earn more in others careers without such stressful and anti social hours?

Or do you think its ok to recruit nurses from developing countries, with poor skills and language difficulties than UK/EAA staff?

Copied and pasted

So I’ve had the calculator out this morning to try and work out the hourly rates for both England and Scotland (If the offer they have is accepted) Please see below,
Band 2 BOTTOM - Scotland - £11.94
Band 2 BOTTOM - England - £10.37

Band 2 TOP - Scotland - £12.97
Band 2 TOP - England - £10.90

Band 3 TOP - Scotland - £14.05
Band 3 TOP - England - £11.85

Band 4 TOP - Scotland - £15.35
Band 4 TOP - England - £13.44

Band 5 BOTTOM - Scotland - £15.46
Band 5 BOTTOM - England - £13.84

Band 5 TOP - Scotland - £19.26
Band 5 TOP - England - £16.84

Band 6 TOP - Scotland - £23.57
Band 6 TOP - England - £20.76

Band 7 TOP - Scotland - £27.51
Band 7 TOP - England - £24.38

A few things to note: A band 3 in Scotland will now be earning the same as a qualified band 5.
My point of this isn’t to shame Scotland for earning more, it’s so hopefully shine a light on how underpaid we all are down here in England / NI / Wales, I’m not saying Scotland shouldn’t be on more either, but at least their government are actually trying to negotiate and not hiding behind a “pay review body”
My other point, is that if the Scottish NHS is struggling to recruit and retain staff with the salaries shown above, then the NHS down here is stuffed :/.
When a checkout operator is earning the same as a band 4 (Bottom), and a bus driver is earning the same as a band 6, it really just shows you how underpaid, and undervalued we all are.
A final note on pay, (I mention this quite a lot) But as of 1 April which is just under 6 weeks away, the bottom of band 2 in England will not even meet the minimum wage, which will be £10.42)

scary to say that the bottom band are not even going to be getting minimum wage from April and not to mention a HCA in Scotland without any university qualifications is on the same salary as newly qualified nurse/ physio/ health professional.

@bakebeans

Im not sure if this is a nationwide thing or also limited to Scotland but they are currently going through the process of rebanding a/n posts from band 2 to band 3.

Long deserved

Scotland are going through new proposals again. They are already on more than those in England.

@Autumndays123
It's the equivalent of a person joining the Army and then being like, "what do you mean I may have to go to war?! I'm not doing that (throws toys out of pram). I didn't know this is what the Army was like.

Well that’s the problem, really.
I’ve been a nurse for over 30 years and it’s not the job I signed up to anymore. I signed up look after patients to a safe standard and not feel like a sinking ship on a daily basis.
As I have said before, it’s not just about pay although better pay will attract and retain more nurses.
When I qualified, nurses didn’t do half of what they do now. Gradually, they have taken over many of the duties which were previously done only by doctors.

A more apt comparison might be someone who signs up to be in the

Well I don't know what happened there.

Here is the whole message.

A more apt comparison might be someone who signs up to be in the QARANC and finds themselves moved without warning or choice into the Rifles.

This is why they are striking as some areas don't even get minimum staffing on non strike days!

I understand that the government have said they will talk about pay.
Baffles me why that was so hard.

Yes someone signs up to be a chef then reposted to be front line infantryman. Very different roles.

As the RCN is now talking to the government re pay (and have called off future strike action) there could be a solution soon that will make this thread redundant. 🙂
Don't forget that not all Trusts voted to strike.

@DrawingdowntheMoon

You mean now the govt are talking to the RCN?

I doubt the govt will offer anything that will avert more strikes

OK, you can slice it whatever way you want, but progress is being made.

Let's not forget that only 44/219 trusts are involved in strike action.

A good demonstration of how draconian the UK's strike laws already are, thank you.
It is well known and not disuputed that the government were until this week refusing to talk to unions about pay, the government are now willing to talk to one union about pay, quite why the government won't talk to the rest who knows. Probably frit.

Its 76, 44 is the RCN figure but nurses, etc belong to GMB, Unison etc.

On a simple majority, all trusts voted for strike action.

@DrawingdowntheMoon

Depends on the offer

I stand corrected.

However, it isn't a 'simple majority is it?

Some Trusts are carrying on as normal