To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

[Stackss]

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

@Botw1

There has to be a balance between offering a pay rise that reflects the increased cost of living, while also making it affordable and not spurring inflation.

7.5% is a fair compromise in my view (in my view the RCN’s original demand for 19.6% was a terrible tactical move as it made it easy to dismiss their demands off hand).

I would offer 5% to other public sector workers like teachers.

People should be able to withdraw labour. So yes YABU.

such measures are ultimately self-defeating. if today's nurses can't bear the load for the pittance being offered, to the point of being willing to strike, what's the recruitment crisis going to be like in 5 years time if pay and conditions are allowed to degrade further compared to inflation. you can't force people to become nurses. Professions that are legally prevented from striking need to get paid a reasonable amount, so that people are willing to give up the right to withdraw their labour in the knowledge they will be looked after. otherwise they won't take that career path.

YANBU OP
It’s disgusting that nurses are quite willing to let people die to make a point about wanting more pay.

It’s domestic terrorism imho. You don’t hold innocents as hostages for money.

My unit hasn't met safe staffing levels in months! Regardless of the strike. I don't think the public see how appalling the work is in the NHS. We cannot keep staff on. Bad pay, no breaks (as in, haven't had a wee in 12 hours), unpaid overtime expected every shift because there just aren't enough bodies. It's shocking and in need of dire change. Unfortunately many more people will die, but what do the government expect? Boris said to let the bodies pile high, and it's only continuing now, albeit slowly and painfully.

Have they changed them? Where? More importantly, why did they officially change their tactics? And even more importantly, who was in charge who had the decision to officially change their tactics?

@Stackss

The rise doesn't have to just reflect the COL. It has to reflect almost 15 years of pay cuts.

Talking of covid, we managed to afford billions for that. The vast majority of it a total waste

If we don't pay NHS staff what they're asking for, their won't be an NHS.

It's not functioning now. We can't afford to lose more staff

I really wish the government would impose minimal staffing levels in my work place op, I really do. But nope we've been working on a large deficit for months and months. I am fed up, so unbelievably fed up.

Spain also pays nurses 150% of the median Spanish salary, whereas we don't.

I finished my training through the peak of covid, unpaid for most of that by the way and when I was paid I had no protected learning hours, so do I count for the 9% or not?

The thing is OP we are in dire dire straits. Every single service is understaffed. We are working ourselves to the bone, exhausted but needing to keep going. We advocate for our patients, their safety is being compromised on a daily basis. People are dying in corridors. Staff are on the brink. If they’re not on the ground trying to fight through a never-ending sea of despair to provide the best care they can, they’re off sick through depression/anxiety/illness. If they’re not off sick they’re leaving the profession. Something has to give.

This government has repeatedly screwed healthcare over since 2010. They’re pushing for more people to train, but they’re unable to replace at the level people are leaving. Add to that there are large parts of the workforce aging and who will be leaving because they’re either a) retiring or b) their bodies can’t take it any more, it points to us being screwed. Conditions need to change, they need to attract and retain staff. Pay is one way to do this. The last strike days we made sure we were safely staffed. Priority patients were seen (I’m a district nurse). Our patients understood why we were doing what we were doing.

We are tired. We are broken. I have recently become a band 6, and the amount of stress and work that has been added to me and my workload is verging on unmanageable. I am documenting in my own time, I’m missing breaks. I’m unable to switch off. I am so stressed and trying to support my staff the best way I can. I’m going out with a very full list, as are my staff. I deal with abusive patients and go into some pretty bad environments. There aren’t enough hours in the day to get everything done. I’m working six days this week, over half of them
long days. Do I need to go on?

Are you quite sure about that?
Average Salary Spain: €32,600
Average Nurse Salary Spain: €28,200

www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=203&loctype=1

www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=203&loctype=1&job=865&jobtype=3

Yep I am going in tomorrow for another 13 hour day and we only have 5 staff in total for 27 patients, rather than 8. I could cry, however, I have applied for another job and will hear tomorrow if I have an interview 🤞. I am done. The job has broken me.
They need to make the role attractive, so the pay needs addresing. I don't believe for a second this government will do a thing about it. The next pay review is due, although we waited until October to get the one due in April this year.

Only 25% of of nursing shifts are fully staffed, so what about staffing levels on non strike days? We are not just striking for pay.

Median and average are not the same thing. It's quite possible for the average to be higher than the median, especially if there are outliers with extremely high incomes. HTH

Well apparently there is enough money to give a pay rise of 16% over two years to senior lawyers in the government's legal department (8% a year). This is in addition to a recent pay rise in August 2022 of 3%.

This doesn't apply to more junior lawyers who are bound by a Civil Service limit of 3%.

I didn't notice the government lawyers out on the picket lines recently.

median is different from average.

averages can be massively skewed from a small number of highly paid, whereas median is the pay for the person in the exact middle if you lined everyone up in order of income.

median income in spain is €14,400 according to destinationscanner.com/average-income-spain-average-salary-minimum-salary-in-spain-reported/ which also highlights half of all households in Spain have an income that is below the average. In other words, the average income in Spain is skewed by a small number of high-earners.

YABU

I think you linked to out of date information. It says
”For example, the average monthly income in Spain is €1,574, but the median monthly income is only €1,206.” So it’s not skewed by that much….

Plus it never says what nurses earn? So where did you come up with 150% of median??

An average income of €1,574 must be from years ago as it is €2,710 now, so your median income figure must be outdated too.

My data is from 2023
Avg Monthly income Spain €2,710
Avg Monthly income Nurse in Spain €2,350

www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=203&loctype=1
www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=203&loctype=1&job=865&jobtype=3

Running close to coercion here.

Since 2010 starting salary for nurses has risen by 17%, MPs by 28%.
Why can nurses have that other 10 or 11% ?

Cost of living has gone up nearer 25%.

Minimum service haha ! You do know there's tens of thousands of unfulfilled nursing jobs in the UK. It's easy to pack up and go to another one, you can call up secure an agency position tomorrow for £400 a shift with less responsibility. Slavery is illegal , people can withdraw their labour and leave Australia are recruiting for nurses right now. The government have shat on HCPs for far too long and their patience has run out.

We might have 2% inflation by the end of the year, but that doesn't mean a 2% rise is sufficient.

If something was £10 last year, 10% inflation would make it £11.00 this year. If inflation drops to 2%, then you would expect it to cost £11.22 next year.

The government are hoping to drive the strikes so long they can say 'but inflation has dropped so your demand is unreasonable' and hope that people don't understand how interest rates work.

The thing is that argument assumes safe levels of care in the first place.

One of the main reasons they are striking, is because they're not given the resources for safe care. Staffing levels are below safe minimums and staff are leaving in droves because it's an impossible job and the weight of responsibility when you are looking after 3x the patients that is deemed safe is crushing them. So I think it's a joke the government are now claiming they give a shit about safe minimum levels of care.

So. Some jobs are far too important to allow striking, but not important enough for pay to keep up with COL? Public sector jobs cannot move for better pay, due to national pay scale s.

How would you deal with it if your 'fair compromise' failed to stem the haemorrhage of staff in those jobs, and the recruitment crises continued?

I completely support this as well. However I do t really support the strikes anyway. If the first one had no impact, then these won't either. I am very glad I'm on days off this time. I worked the last ones. It was ridiculous. We were better staffed than normal and had fewer patients.