To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

[Stackss]

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

And yet the numbers show that people are not applying. People are not interested or are put off by the pay and conditions and we need to make it more attractive to people considering their future career.

The #1 reason for this per the government report posted upthread was the scrapping of the nursing bursaries. Students are put off studying to be a nurse if they have to pay off student loans.

We had large shortages of HCP's long before bursaries were scrapped.

Few people want to go into a profession where pay and conditions plus extra costs like parking are very poor, people clapped the NHS then once the pandemic was over, they were told to f off with a 1% pay rise (later under pressure raised to 3%, the pay review recommendation)

Its little wonder people leave the nhs for greener pastures once they have a bit of experience,

imho there is a great deal of bitterness in the workforce over the way they were treated post pandemic & thats why they've had enough.

Oh, is it only Agenda for Change employees who pay student loans and parking?

Compared to the average U.K. salary, are Band 5 and 6 workers “lower paid?” This isn’t about their outgoings - we all have outgoings. It’s about the claim that they are “lower paid.”

Not of nurses though. The GP shortage was/is caused by government cap on medical students.

The pay is only low now due to the cost of living crisis…which is impacting everyone especially the 50%+ of U.K. workers who earn less than the average nurse does and don’t have nearly as good a pension.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/63587909

Of course you're not. If they were the same minimums we had the rest of the time then I'd agree. Except they exceed what we normally work with and the Government couldn't give two shiny shits about those days. Which tells old cynical me that it's got fuck all to do with safety and everything to do with not paying us our worth. Thankfully in 15 months it will no longer be my problem as I will have qualified in an entirely different career where I can be paid for the hours I work, and if I do overtime I'm paid for that. Manage my own diary so can make sure it fits my family life without DH having to be a stay at home Dad (childcare costs would mean I would be working purely to pay nursery fees!). Every weekend off. Every Christmas off. And Easter. For my 15 years as a nurse I'm on less than 1/4 of what I'd be on in my new career even after only 8-10 years. If I'm going to be described as a callous money grabbing cow that doesn't care about the people I may as well at least get paid for it.

OP - so you support not allowing people to die?
Excellent! - So you need to support the strike. Patients aren't dying because nurses are striking, nurses are striking because patients are dying.

We urgently need to improve pay, by doing this we make it an attractive career choice and recruit new nurses. We also need to retain what we have. Once we have this is place then then we will not require such massive use of agency nurses. 12 out of 24 nurses were agency staff on a recent shift. That's half the workforce who are not speciality trained/ don't know the Dept or hospital and rely on the 12 permanent staff to help them.

That's a lot of funding you can save right there that will cover the cost of pay rises.

The RCN intend to remove derogations so previously derogated areas will be able to strike such as Emergency Depts. However the 'protect life and limb' rule will still apply and no serious harm will occur on strike days.

I can't give you any promise that no serious harm or death will occur on any normal work day as that risk is a daily risk that is taken with current circumstances and unsafe staffing. That amount of stress and strain on a daily basis and the moral injury caused by working in such conditions is why staff are leaving in droves.

I saw a manager of Aldi advertised the other day for £48,000 starting salary increasing to £65,000 after 4 years.

I am in charge of shifts in an Emergency Dept and have over 20 years training and experience and am on around £32,000. If you are looking for a new career then nursing is not the most attractive option.

Striking- 'It's not about the income, it's about the outcome'

@Onnabugeisha

Only England removed the bursary

@Ecoo

Why would we compare nurse wages to the average and not other professional wages?

Average salaries are too low. Across the country.

Have you missed the bit about inequality increasing? That means those on lower paid jobs are well out of step with those at the top end. As there are more in lower paid jobs, this drags the average down.

Comparing nurses to an average pay is meaningless- that’s not the ask here. Nurses are saying they aren’t being paid enough for what they’re expected to do and their union is helping them with that.

Why do you think nurses should only earn a (low) average? Is it a race to the bottom?

Nurses have to contribute to that pension.

Pensions don’t pay the bills now and you may have missed the stories about how low pensions are in the UK.

Is this a race to the bottom?

Why not compare a nurses wage this year to last year and agree that they should be the same when increased cost of living is taken into account?
It really isn't much to expect.

I think it may be a race to see which of the interns can post the most absurd and ill informed comment on this thread.

Thank you for sharing data that shows that doctors are more likely to be men, most helpful.

Everyone has to contribute to their work place pension. There isn’t any worker who gets a free pension. 😆

Patients aren't dying because nurses are striking, nurses are striking because patients are dying.

If this were true then the union would be willing to negotiate with the government regarding the working conditions and not be refusing to even begin to negotiate unless they can negotiate a pay rise.

If this were true, then the union would not be demanding a 19% pay rise that is so crippling, there is no way the NHS could afford to hire more staff, offer more appointments and build more hospitals - all the real things needed to stop patients from dying.

Perhaps you do not pay very much attention to current affairs @Onnabugeisha the unions, in the NHS and in every other part of the public sector that is on strike are willing to negotiate. The government are not willing to negotiate. If you would like to see an example of what occurs when there is a negotiation I suggest you read up about nurses pay in Scotland.

To further help your education 19% is not a pay rise. It is an increase that reflects the increased cost of living and brings nurses pay closer to being the same in real terms as it was in 2010. If you do not think nurses deserved the pay they recieved in 2010, and should have a pay cut, feel free to explain why.

Not giving nurses and other staff decent pay is already crippling the NHS.

RCN and other unions have called for talks on working conditions for years and its got them no where.... hence the strikes.

As i said earlier, this amount of ill will hasn't come out of no where....

With 13 years of 1 or 2% pay rises, the govt hasn't built more hospitals, bought more equipment etc etc

Whether the nurses get an additional pay rise or not, the Govt will not spend what is required on the NHS, staff equipment, buildings etc..

They have had 13 years of very low pay rises and haven't done so.... the extra funding promised now is fire fighting & most of it will not go into long term planning for the NHS.

"If this were true, then the union would not be demanding a 19% pay rise that is so crippling, there is no way the NHS could afford to hire more staff, offer more appointments and build more hospitals - all the real things needed to stop patients from dying."

You seem to be a bit behind.

Pat Cullen has said that they want to negotiate the figures and at the beginning of the year suggested they meet in the middle.

To do that there obviously needs to be a conversation.

She's also been available to meet Barclay for the last month.

It's the Government dragging their heels.

Oh and retention of existing trained nurses very much helps patient mortality.

@Onnabugeisha

Why are you commenting on a topic you clearly know nothing about?

She’s only available if the government is willing to negotiate a pay rise. That hasn’t changed.

@Onnabugeisha Please can you try and be factually accurate. The nurses are not demanding a pay rise. The government is not willing to negotiate a pay freeze, but instead are insisting upon a pay cut.

I would be grateful if you could explain why you think that nurses (a shortage profession) should have a pay cut.

I think @Onnabugeisha is trying to demonstrate that sheer unadultarated nonsense was not limited to threads about Boris Johnson not being responsible for Boris Johnson partying at law breaking parties.

I'm just disappointed we haven't had a but JeremyCorbyn yet.

I know enough. And don’t you need the support of people like me? This is hardly the way to get it.

Saying shut up and go away to those of us who see disconnects between saying to the public that nurses are striking because they need more staff to improve patient care but then not only demanding a pay rise that will make hiring extra staff fiscally impossible but refusing to even negotiate unless a pay rise is on the table.

Really not the way to get or keep support.

You’re being factually incorrect…a 19% increase to pay is a pay rise.
Going by wage increases or erosion in real terms has never been used to define a pay rise.
Nurses haven’t had a pay cut.

@Onnabugeisha

No. I don't need your support.

Im not sure why you'd think that.

Im not asking you to shut up or go away.

You can stay and keep spouting nonsense. It's funny at least

You keep telling yourself that.
You'd keep being wrong.

Any chance @Onnabugeisha you could explain why you think nurses should be paid less in real terms this year than they were last year?