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To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

434 replies

Stackss · 16/02/2023 21:06

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

OP posts:
Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:01

@Icedlatteplease

That doesn't answer the question.

When the people responsible (the govt) refuse to engage with the political campaigns (as they have) what then?

Continue to allow the harm happening every day by doing nothing?

Is there any evidence the strikes have caused further harm?

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:02

ClareBlue · 17/02/2023 14:01

So pay is ín effect being cut by inflation every year. How low does it have to go before you think that their ability to feed and house themselves is important enough to outweigh their obligations to cover the failings in the decisions made by the decision makers, who are getting pay rises no problem. Or is there no floor to what they should accept because they are in a caring profession. The reality is that many have left because they don't have the energy or inclination for this fight. This is the absolute last choice of those left in this service. Do you really think nurses would be standing outside hospitals if they thought they had any other choice.

But that's the point.

You are choosing to strike

You are choosing to not look after your patience

You ate choosing to do harm

Nurses actually shouldn't be allowed to strike full stop

Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:04

Should they be allowed to quit?

Maybe conscription is the answer?

SleeplessInEngland · 17/02/2023 14:04

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:02

But that's the point.

You are choosing to strike

You are choosing to not look after your patience

You ate choosing to do harm

Nurses actually shouldn't be allowed to strike full stop

Their 'patience' has reached its limit, to be fair.

Notonthestairs · 17/02/2023 14:04

Remind me again how worried you are about patients...

From RCN survey March 2022 -

The report highlighted that going into the Covid-19 pandemic in January 2020 73% of nursing staff surveyed said that staffing levels on their last shift were not sufficient to meet all the needs of the patients safely and effectively. In 2022, it said this had risen to 83%.
Other key findings included:
• 25% of shifts had the full number of planned registered nurses on shift.
• Around one in five (18%) respondents agreed they had enough time to provide the level of care they would like.
• 69% of respondents said that the nursing skills mix (the number and education experience of nurses working in clinical settings) was not appropriate.
• Around half (52%) of respondents said that students held supernumerary status (which means that education standards require that they are not to be counted in workforce numbers while learning), while 39% said they did not.
• 62% reported that patient care was compromised on their last shift, compared to 57% in 2020 and 53% in 2017.
• 81% felt that patient care was being compromised due to not having enough registered nurses on shift.
• 43% said that they had to leave necessary care undone due to a lack of time, an increase from 38% in 2020, and 26% in 2017. On shifts where 100% of planned registered nurses were present, around one in three (31%) reported that necessary care was still left undone due to a lack of time.
• One in five (21%) said they felt unable to raise their concerns.
• Half of respondents (51%) felt “demoralised”.
• 16% of respondents felt “fulfilled”.
• Almost two-thirds (61%) were unable to take the breaks they were supposed to have.
• 63% of respondents worked additional time. Of these, 77% were unpaid for these additional hours.
• 87% of Black respondents who worked within the NHS reported working unpaid additional time compared to 77% of respondents from a White British background.
Reflecting on these findings, the RCN said that they presented “a clear picture of unsustainable staffing levels in health and care services in the UK, in which it is not possible for patient safety to be protected”.

lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-nursing-workforce-royal-college-of-nursing-report/

Donotunderestimateme · 17/02/2023 14:05

@Icedlatteplease well then they will just leave the profession just as you and @Autumndays123 thinks they should.
And then there will be no nurses and everyone will be screwed.

mamabear715 · 17/02/2023 14:06

Not RTFT (it's getting long!) but tbh I am losing patience too, with ALL strikers.. the only people affected are the public.
I hate seeing their grinning foolish faces on the news. I'm not disputing that some of them have good reason to be annoyed, but I do think of the people in hospital, for example, & it just doesn't sit well with me..

SleeplessInEngland · 17/02/2023 14:08

mamabear715 · 17/02/2023 14:06

Not RTFT (it's getting long!) but tbh I am losing patience too, with ALL strikers.. the only people affected are the public.
I hate seeing their grinning foolish faces on the news. I'm not disputing that some of them have good reason to be annoyed, but I do think of the people in hospital, for example, & it just doesn't sit well with me..

Strikes are great right up until they become inconvenient for the general public, at which point they should be banned.

Zebedee55 · 17/02/2023 14:09

Nurses are like workers in every other profession - they vary between excellent, lazy/mediocre, and some are a menace to those that they are supposed to be helping.

I feel for those in A&Es at the moment - ours is like a madhouse, much of it because patients can't get to see their GPs. The staff there are running around for hours trying to get through the people waiting.

However, on wards, it can be very different. My DH is in hospital a fair amount, and the care varies tremendously. Certainly no ward I've been in suggests staff running around with no time to use a toilet!

I don't think they are that badly paid, to be honest, although I get that they (like most others) have lost money through inflation etc. I don't believe they need food banks.

But, we do need to employ more NHS staff, so wages will have to rise. I also think the NHS needs reform - it's an inefficient monolith that never changes, regardless of how many billions are thrown at it.

I don't think the strike will work - the government are willing to sit it out, because they know the public are getting "strikes weary" and support for all the strikers is starting to slide.

My sympathies lie with care workers, both community and care home. They work their socks off, with massive staff shortages, get a pittance in wages, and often badly treated by employers. I'd like to see them given a statutory large pay rise.🙁

Workers are entitled to stop providing labour, so if a strike is what they feel they need, then that's their right. But, as Labour has also said they won't be dishing out large pay rises either, if they get into power, I'm not sure much will change.

Not providing adequate care in A&E, Cancer units and ITUs seems a step too far though.

SleeplessInEngland · 17/02/2023 14:10

I don't think the strike will work - the government are willing to sit it out, because they know the public are getting "strikes weary" and support for all the strikers is starting to slide.

The government also knows it won't win the next election, so what's the point anyway. Might a well make it Labour's problem.

KTheGrey · 17/02/2023 14:11

I think @Donotunderestimateme has the number of @Autumndays123 and @Icedlatteplease.
My favourite thing about the latter posters is that they would not do the job under any circumstances but have no problem explaining that they would never strike if they did. It's like they imagine that if they had a strong enough drive to be good to make a front line contribution to society they would have no need to eat or drink or have a house, or wish to see the NHS funded well enough to serve its citizens.

Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:12

@Zebedee55

'My sympathies lie with care workers, both community and care home. They work their socks off, with massive staff shortages, get a pittance in wages, and often badly treated by employers'

Thats what happens when you privatise health care

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:13

Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:04

Should they be allowed to quit?

Maybe conscription is the answer?

I sooner see conscription than people die because nurses have personally taken the choice to strike.

I think nurses have sat within a bit of an echo chamber.

I'm not sure they have the general support they think they have.

SleeplessInEngland · 17/02/2023 14:14

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:13

I sooner see conscription than people die because nurses have personally taken the choice to strike.

I think nurses have sat within a bit of an echo chamber.

I'm not sure they have the general support they think they have.

You know it doesn't actually matter if the public supports strikes or not? It's not a general election.

LexMitior · 17/02/2023 14:15

It's pointless. They haven't got enough nurses and so the minimum service level would have to be literally nothing to be achievable

Fordian · 17/02/2023 14:16

@Discovereads

"The #1 main reason is retirement. It’s the ageing population causing higher numbers of nurses to leave and even so, we are still gaining 18,198 nurses year on year.

So, forgive me but I don’t see any evidence for the claims of “haemorrhaging staff” due to pay, patient care quality or staffing levels."

Yes. I'm retiring. Aged 60. Not 67. As my body can't put up with the physical and mental pressures of the job anymore; and my workplace is increasingly unsafe due the wholesale recruitment of questionably qualified overseas staff.

Do your stats highlight how many HCPs retire early? 🤔

Willyoujustbequiet · 17/02/2023 14:16

KTheGrey · 17/02/2023 14:11

I think @Donotunderestimateme has the number of @Autumndays123 and @Icedlatteplease.
My favourite thing about the latter posters is that they would not do the job under any circumstances but have no problem explaining that they would never strike if they did. It's like they imagine that if they had a strong enough drive to be good to make a front line contribution to society they would have no need to eat or drink or have a house, or wish to see the NHS funded well enough to serve its citizens.

I was a nurse along with generations of my family.

I don't support the strike and I'm not the only one.

Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:17

@Icedlatteplease

If you can show me evidence that people are suffering more harm on strike days than non strike days that would be a start?

Stats here on support for strikes although tbh I'm not sure it's relevant

The only people who need to support them are nurses and their unions

www.ipsos.com/en-uk/support-nurses-strikes-lower-last-months-blame-placed-mainly-government

Notonthestairs · 17/02/2023 14:17

@Icedlatteplease but you are ok with only 25% of shifts having the full number of planned nurses?
And you are also ok with 81% of nurses surveyed saying they felt that patient care was being compromised due to not having enough registered nurses on shift.
And also ok with 43% saying that they had to leave necessary care undone due to a lack of time, an increase from 38% in 2020, and 26% in 2017. On shifts where 100% of planned registered nurses were present, around one in three (31%) reported that necessary care was still left undone due to a lack of time.

That's all fine. We shouldn't expect anything more.

Notonthestairs · 17/02/2023 14:21

LexMitior · 17/02/2023 14:15

It's pointless. They haven't got enough nurses and so the minimum service level would have to be literally nothing to be achievable

The point isn't to staff departments appropriately. The point is to look as if they have achieved something. Smoke & mirrors.

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:25

Notonthestairs · 17/02/2023 14:17

@Icedlatteplease but you are ok with only 25% of shifts having the full number of planned nurses?
And you are also ok with 81% of nurses surveyed saying they felt that patient care was being compromised due to not having enough registered nurses on shift.
And also ok with 43% saying that they had to leave necessary care undone due to a lack of time, an increase from 38% in 2020, and 26% in 2017. On shifts where 100% of planned registered nurses were present, around one in three (31%) reported that necessary care was still left undone due to a lack of time.

That's all fine. We shouldn't expect anything more.

That gives even less justification for any nurse doing anything other than nurse. It does not justify striking

jgw1 · 17/02/2023 14:26

Donotunderestimateme · 17/02/2023 13:42

@Sweetcarol i hope you enjoy every minute of your flexi retirement.
we also have many new starters from developing countries and I think some of them are regretting their decision to come here.
they will account for many of the new entrants on the NMC register. We are not training many nurses at home. We need to attract more young people into the profession. It is unethical to poach developing countries healthcare staff.

There haas been a 19% drop in applications to study nursing for courses startin in |September 2023 compared with sept 2022...

LexMitior · 17/02/2023 14:27

@Notonthestairs - well yes. I doubt this law will even come into effect before the next election

Icedlatteplease · 17/02/2023 14:28

Botw1 · 17/02/2023 14:17

@Icedlatteplease

If you can show me evidence that people are suffering more harm on strike days than non strike days that would be a start?

Stats here on support for strikes although tbh I'm not sure it's relevant

The only people who need to support them are nurses and their unions

www.ipsos.com/en-uk/support-nurses-strikes-lower-last-months-blame-placed-mainly-government

So the only thing nurses care about are they're nurses their unions?

They was me thinking that the most important person a nurse should care about is their patients....

SleeplessInEngland · 17/02/2023 14:30

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