to want to use the bus like everyone else?

[toddlertamer20]

Hi,
I'm a single mum of 3, live in london and am now reliant on a wheelchair. I use buses to get around as I don't drive. I'm just getting so sick and tired of people being so incredibly selfish on buses. Wheelchairs have the priority, as obviously we cannot fold, however, as I have found out in the last few years, if there are prams on board and they refuse to fold...there is not much the driver can do as they can't be physically removed.
Most of the time, if a bus comes along with 2 prams, I will wait for the next bus. But sometimes I have to be somewhere and considering that is the only spot I am able to use on the bus, I feel like I should be allowed to use it. Everytime I insist that I need to get on it either a)end up with an argument eith the driver as he won't ask people to move or fold their prams....then a call to TFL who apologise and promise the educate the driver again.
b) I get let on but then the people with the pram won't move and argue with me, one of these times the driver was oblivious that I was mid gangway still and pulled off causing me to be thrown into a pole and break my arm. Or c) They just pull off and don't even attempt to let me on or put the ramp down.
Today again I ended up in a big argument. I needed to get a bus to get my youngest from school. The bus didn't come for ages. It eventually came but 3 buggies were on board, one without a child in it. The driver tried to tell me the next bus would be along in 20 minutes to which I said I couldn't. So he played the announcement asking the people to move their buggies. Then suddenly another passenger comes to the door and informs me that I need to wait as the people with the prams were there first. So I told him that actually by law I have priority, and I need to be on this bus. He then proceeds to tell me how I just need to wait and can't just get on and kick people off. At this point I was late already to get my child from school, so I did insist I got on. In the end I was allowed on bus got a mouthful off both the parents with the prams. I just don't know if it's me. I can understand it's frustrating if you're on a bus and suddenly you have to move or fold your pram up, but I cannot fold my wheelchair. It feels like everyone thinks I am in the wrong when I'm trying my best to just be a normal mother! Please tell me there aren't just selfish people put there...or is this honestly just me?
(by the way I do try to leave super early to make sure I have plenty of time to get there but then I am also waiting outside in the cold and I have problems with my joints so not a good combination)

Oh good another thread having a go at mums in a public space. I'm always astonished about how dippy and ignorant some posters are. 'Just use a sling!' 'Just don't CHOOSE to get a bus!' 'Just put your baby down (somewhere? On the floor? On a seat?)' 'Just fold your pram! That's what we had to do in the past, in those notoriously woman and mother friendly times we definitely want to emulate!' I do wonder these people had a few more friends they might both have more insight and understanding about other people, and also be a bit less unpleasant? Public transport is hard enough with a pram and with children. Its mind boggling to me that some people seem to want to make it harder, but many posters on here seem to really hate parents and children in public places so I guess it's an extension of that. I'm so glad in real life people are so much more helpful, kind and accommodating to mums than Mumsnet users.I've happily got off a bus twice for wheelchair users, the second time the guy insisted I get back on once he'd put his wheelchair in place, which I appreciated. That said, it was never taught to me that there was a hierarchy for the space. I only knew it because I spent time working on improving public transport accessibility as part of my job in my 20s. I imagine a lot of people just don't know. I can see why a parent with a pram, who possibly had to wait for more than once bus to go by before they could get on and has already paid, and had no idea there was any expectation in place, would be frustrated at having to get off. In those situations the driver needs to step up and do their job as it is clear the wheelchair user has priority. The wheelchair user should not have to fight their corner here and it shouldn't be up to the two passengers just to duke it out. It all feels very crabs in the bucket mentality. (Incidentally it's also untrue that a wheelchair user is for life, of the three wheelchair users I have known personlly two were only temporary (broke both her legs in a car accident) or used only very sporadically when conditions flared up.)

It's not a disabled space though. It's a wheelchair space.

Wheel chair users are given priority over pushchairs very clearly in busses because it because a really serious issue and unless they spelt it out in black and white no one understood that. Pushchairs are not disabled but a disabled child in a special mobility pushchair, a disabled person who requires a large bulky walking frame, a blind person who can’t negotiate a busy bus and needs open access to get on/off. A wheelchair user doesn’t have priority over other disabled people.

This simply isn't correct. The wheelchair space on a bus is very specifically there for wheelchair users, which would include disabled children in mobility pushchairs. Your equation of wheelchair spaces with disability parking spaces is incorrect, the purpose is entirely different. The disabled person using a walking frame can use the designated seats at the front of the bus (and would almost certainly prefer it), and the existence of a wheelchair space doesn't impede access for a blind person

Some posters seem to be confused over the differences between disabled and wheelchair. You can be registered disabled but not use a wheelchair. On public transport the priority space is for wheelchair users not solely disabled.

There are several possible solutions to this:

Mandatory training for all public transport drivers about the rights of wheelchair users, that includes role playing what to do to for example, if someone with a buggy is refusing to vacate the space for a wheelchair user.

Proper support for drivers and wheelchair users from British Transport Police, enforcing the law and issuing on the spot fines.

A public information campaign.

Maybe some form of badge scheme for buggies that are effectively wheelchairs for disabled children, so that these parents are recognised as having rights to use the wheelchair space as a wheelchair user.

If you like these ideas, maybe write to the transport company and your MP.

This entitlement from parents of babies and toddlers seems to be getting worse. I live on a busy, very frequent London bus route (bus every 4 mins). The other day there were already three unfolded pushchairs on the bus and this woman got on with another one, refused to fold and proceeded to block both access to the upstairs and the exit doors. I literally had to climb over her toddler and buggy to get out. I don't how the less agile managed it. She seemed bewildered when I told her she should have waited for the next bus 4 mins behind (there are arrivals boards with this info on).

@xol I suppose if the bus driver got up and said "you're going to have to move" then the other person would have to move. But that rarely ever happens and it's left for the passengers to decide if their need is justified. So the supposed "law" that people keep quoting is useless anyway. The bus driver is not going to start debating who is more disabled because that would be risky territory. I think perhaps the only fair situation in all this is to have to apply for some kind of pass system and that would certainly eradicate most of the problem.

The end of the day it's first come first served, unless they state that it's not in some areas.

It absolutely isn’t first come first served. It is a wheelchair space which can be used by others if it is not needed by a wheelchair user. Next time you’re on the bus try to read the sign.

The bus driver doesn't have to get into any debate. It's absolutely straightforward. The wheelchair space is for the wheelchair user. The driver can tell the buggy owner to fold or get off the bus, and can refuse to drive off till they do.

It’s not a supposed law - it’s legislation which went as a high as the Supreme Court.

In January 2017 the Supreme Court clarified the law as it affects access to the wheelchair space for wheelchair users, ruling that drivers must do more than simply request other passengers vacate the space when it is required by a wheelchair user.

Well yes obviously. I didn’t say ‘all over America is like this.’ I was simply pointing out that other places have much better facilities. Same as how if you went up and lived on a tiny Scottish island you’d probably struggle for a bus!

As in, I was just using my own experience.

The bus driver is not going to start debating who is more disabled because that would be risky territory
You keep arguing nonsensically because you still don't actually understand how it works.
There is no ambiguity in this, just read the bloody sign.

@Parker231 okay well I suppose we just have to sit and wait for that to happen. Don't hold your breath!

It's a wheelchair space. Not a space for people with other disabilities. Not a space for prams. I don't know why people don't seem to get this. It's tough enough for people in wheelchairs, don't make it harder.

As the case law demonstrates, bus companies that fail to insist on wheelchair spaces being vacated for wheelchair users can and do find themselves on the wrong end of disability discrimination claims. Bus drivers have become much better about enforcing the law since the 2017 decision.

Why break the law in the first place when you know it’s wrong not to give a priority to a wheelchair user in a wheelchair space?

Their need to the space is greater than yours. They don’t get a choice as to how they get about.

You'd defend someone using a space over another person who actually is entitled to use it? Yep I'd say you are selfish. The spaces are for wheelchair users to have priority, anyone arguing against that is selfish.

Prepared to get flamed for this but this is why I believe that wheelchair spaces on a bus should be kept free at all times, and buggies only allowed on if folded at the outset.

Perhaps then parents would campaign for their own spaces, rather than taking what disabled activist groups campaigned for for decades.

Not flamed by me, I agree.

@CherLloydbyCherLloyd

Are you serious? I’ve just given it away on Freecycle! Oh well. Someone got a good deal.

I'm inclined to agree, having heard the barely coherent "arguements" put forward by the likes of @Scooby5kids

Bus drivers are not empowered to do anything about it. You’d probably find that if a driver intervened and there was a complaint to the LA, the company would be fined. That’s why they don’t let people on the bus if they are late too. As a bus driver, why would you want to risk your job to address some dispute between passengers over their entitlements?

In regard to parents with push chairs, more often than not the entitlement mentality comes from a place if lower intelligence and the struggle those types of people have dealing with complex society and working out how to be polite and compassionate to others. There is no room to think for some people because the variables are too fast moving, requiring spontaneous thought and the ability to process empathy at the same time, in an instant, and in households lower down on the spectrum, these sorts of thoughts for others is just absent. They are where they are for a reason.

So, if I were in OP’s position, I’d be try to forgive those parents (and their apologists) and pity their children who are going to grow up and emulate their mothers behaviours and attitudes to the world. And they’ll struggle and be limited because of it. OP’s kids on the other hand will see a mother who fought and didn’t give up, and will likely learn to tackle adversity and not give up. And they’ll be happier and better for it.

@Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious I defend a child in a disability buggy or someone with an actual disability using the spot, yes. I don't think anyone should sit there if they don't need to!

I was with a friend in a wheelchair trying to get on the bus. I could see a lady with a pram noticing us and starting to fold her pushchair, only for the driver to say we can't get on as there is a pushchair there already. I can't blame the mum, but the bus driver gave me the rage. Complaint filed as soon as we got back.