Page 6 | Being mistaken for the PA

BingBoings · 2023-02-10T21:11:00+00:00

Twice this week I have been in email chains, where I have been asked to supply dates for a meeting. The reason for this has in both cases, I assume, is that I am the only female name in the thread. Both situations have seen large numbers of clients and colleagues copied in on emails where… I am asked if I can help give times when my male colleagues are free. I am usually senior to them. Am I the only person this happens to? I find it half hilarious, and half embarrassing… A few months ago I was asked in a meeting if I could do coffees when I walked in… i have no issue with managing my own diary nor is there any issue with being a PA… it’s more that I don’t see men having this issue…!

Mark19735 · 11/02/2023 00:46

monsteramunch · 11/02/2023 00:43

Being a woman is a 'visible characteristic', funnily enough. What an odd thing to apparently not realise.

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Err ... that's my point.

nocoolnamesleft · 11/02/2023 00:46

Oh, look, we have a man mansplaining misogyny to us. Deep joy.

One of our chief execs was such a rude bullying misogynist that even some of my male colleagues told him he needed to wind his neck in.

monsteramunch · 11/02/2023 00:48

@Mark19735

Keen to check if you were a troll, I did a quick search of your name. A recent post:

Men are just like babies. He wants sex and attention. You need to divide your time and attention between the two babies in your life. Clearly there are good reasons to prioritise the actual baby, but if you are allocating your attention 100% to the new one and 0% to the old one, you are getting it wrong.

Men are also quite useful. They can fix things, and provide for you. So consider any time you spend giving him the sex and attention he wants an investment.

Good grief.

I hope you are a troll tbh.

There we have it, a raging sexist... shock horror.

Women - stop womaning 'wrong' and have sex you don't really want to have, so men will 'provide for you'!

Bleurgh.

Delphigirl · 11/02/2023 00:52

Mark19735 · 11/02/2023 00:31

Are you sure about that? It feels like the OP was saying "I think I'm quite senior. I was treated like my role is more junior." That's about status.

Misogyny is dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. But the OP didn't describe a scenario where anyone exhibited loathing and hatred at the very idea that a women could be quite senior. She just gave an example of mistaken identity - one where it was assumed that she was junior. There are other threads about age-based mistaken identity, race-based mistaken identity, class-based mistaken identity - all sorts. It happens all the time.

Making it all about the sex of the person is a distraction. Many men are status-obsessed and insecure. So are many women. Anecdotal examples of mistaken identity are not evidence of systematic misogyny. Unconscious bias, perhaps. But it's not always pernicious. Sometimes mistakes really are just that - mistakes. All the posts in which people are celebrating those who have responded to these situations with prickliness or rudeness are just exhibiting the attitudes I described - an unhealthy obsession with perceived status and a gleeful desire to brandish some weird identity-based victimhood. That isn't fighting misogyny - it's being a dick. People with real gravitas don't mind, seem to notice or even care when it happens to them.

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Manspaining misogyny to Mumsnet.

I’ve seen it all now.

DysmalRadius · 11/02/2023 00:56

Mansplaining misogyny - check
Denying the experiences of women - check
Claiming that overt sexism is just women being oversensitive - check
Telling women 'what they actually meant to say' - check
Blaming women for being victims of misogyny - check

I do believe that we are in the presence of a subject matter expert!

CrackingCrackling · 11/02/2023 01:01

Yup. Whenever i was standing next to one of my male junior managers (retail) the customer would always direct their queries to them. They always seemed shocked when they found out it was actually little old me who was the one who could make the decisions as I was 'The' manager 🙄

Hawkins003 · 11/02/2023 01:02

Didn't the op say it was usually other women that made the error ?

Cordeliathecat · 11/02/2023 01:07

I am very senior and work in a male dominated industry. I have never found this. Quite the opposite in fact, I am often the only woman in the boardroom and I feel as though the men go out of their way to ensure I'm never the one pouring the coffee, taking notes etc. In fact, it was the same when I was more junior. And the industry I work in would never be described as politically correct. Maybe you just work with dicks?

Twatalert · 11/02/2023 01:21

Cordeliathecat · 11/02/2023 01:07

I am very senior and work in a male dominated industry. I have never found this. Quite the opposite in fact, I am often the only woman in the boardroom and I feel as though the men go out of their way to ensure I'm never the one pouring the coffee, taking notes etc. In fact, it was the same when I was more junior. And the industry I work in would never be described as politically correct. Maybe you just work with dicks?

Sounds like you are doing OK!

Honest question: throughout your career did you never really observe that you are being treated differently because you are a woman?

I thought these things didn't happen to me until well into my 30s. Turns out it was all so ingrained in me that even I didn't notice. Looking back there were tons of incidents, starting with my first boss calling me a 'good girl' for agreeing to something. No man would ever be called a good boy in a workplace. I was just blind, had no awareness and considered all this normal.

Now I get these things on a different level. Mainly by my male colleagues who think they know my job better than i do. But yes they are dicks too. The more successful my part of the business is the worse they behave.

SueG60 · 11/02/2023 01:29

Delphigirl · 11/02/2023 00:52

Manspaining misogyny to Mumsnet.

I’ve seen it all now.

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He's articulating his points very well, everything he's saying is logical and explains why these things happen. And I found it semi-interesting to read.

However, he doesn't seem to be grasping that its a problem for us. So what if you're a woman in the middle and jockeying for position. The issue isn't that it shows insecurity its that in comparison to a male in exactly the same position in the hierarchy you're having to deal with preconceptions that they don't.

Cordeliathecat · 11/02/2023 01:36

Twatalert · 11/02/2023 01:21

Sounds like you are doing OK!

Honest question: throughout your career did you never really observe that you are being treated differently because you are a woman?

I thought these things didn't happen to me until well into my 30s. Turns out it was all so ingrained in me that even I didn't notice. Looking back there were tons of incidents, starting with my first boss calling me a 'good girl' for agreeing to something. No man would ever be called a good boy in a workplace. I was just blind, had no awareness and considered all this normal.

Now I get these things on a different level. Mainly by my male colleagues who think they know my job better than i do. But yes they are dicks too. The more successful my part of the business is the worse they behave.

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Of course I have had the odd experience of sexism both inside and outside the work place but not systemically so. Not enough to feel that it's common or regular for me. But yes, I have come into contact with a few dicks in my time! I have just given them a swift dressing down and sometimes I've not even needed to as others have jumped in on my behalf before I could even open my mouth.
All that said, I do carry myself well and am more than capable of holding my own in a professional environment. My father was a feminist and I had great male and female mentors in the early days of my career that set me up well. It never occurred to me that I would face any obstacles due to my sex and I can honestly say that I don't feel I ever have.
The only time I regularly experience sexism is when the plumber/builder/electrician/mechanic tells me he needs to talk to DH about the issues. And then I am more than happy to play the useless female role and let DH have the headache!

Aria999 · 11/02/2023 01:43

I have never had a problem in a career context. I did have a tw*t kitchen contractor who would only listen to my husband about figures (they were wrong, I am an accountant).

Everyonehasavoice · 11/02/2023 02:08

As an architect I had this in the early days with clients
Never with contractors who would bend over backwards to treat me with respect, actually far more than my male colleagues.

If you’re assertive and don’t take any crap they’ll get the picture.
In terms of them asking you to give dates for your male colleagues you just need to tell them your role.

yellowtwo · 11/02/2023 02:52

Cordeliathecat

You haven't systematically experienced sexism but you are more than happy to play the useless female role and let DH have the headache!
That you think women have a "useless female role" is stereotyping and a result of sexism.

sashh · 11/02/2023 03:04

I had a boiler breakdown a few weeks ago, I'd got an appointment anywhere between 8.00 and 12.00.

At about 8.30 I got a call saying, "well be with you next, about 10 mins".

I thought it was the same person I made the appointment with, nope it was the female plumber.

And yes she does get that all the time.

Strangely I wasn't suprised at the Sky engineer being female.

@Mark1973 you need to change the number to 1950sdinosaur

Mummyoflittledragon · 11/02/2023 03:23

Mark19735 · 11/02/2023 00:41

Funny you should say that. I don't need to hypothesise that situation. And I know exactly how I behave - as graciously and forgivingly as I would any other mistake.

There is a world of difference between someone mistakenly assuming you have a different role to the one you actually have because of some visible characteristic and some conscious or unconscious biases, and someone behaving as if you don't merit the role you actually have once they know the truth. The latter is prejudice. The former, is a mistake.

assuming you have a different role to the one you actually have because of some visible characteristic and some conscious or unconscious bias… is a mistake

No it is not a mistake. It is stereotyping a person based on some characteristic. This is just a different type of prejudice and has exactly the same effect as treating a person as though they don’t merit the role even when their job title is known.

GiltEdges · 11/02/2023 03:34

VeronicaFranklin · 10/02/2023 21:39

I was once asked in a meeting if I could 'pop out to the shop' to get one of the male managers some Sudafed as he had a cold and was struggling and 'if it isn't too much trouble to grab everyone a Starbucks on the way back would be really helpful'

So I did as asked without question.

When I came back 20 mins later, the meeting hadn't started, everyone sat around looking awkward because as a senior manager, I was chairing it... and consequently everyone was kept an hour later. They assumption was I was a junior note taker, being the only female in the room.

Frankly this just makes you look stupid. Why didn’t you say “No, I’m chairing the meeting, he can get his own Sudafed”? Instead, to make a point, you apparently went along with it and delayed the start of your own meeting. How utterly unprofessional.

Happyhappyday · 11/02/2023 04:12

I work in the ski industry for a huge (read, one of the biggest in the world) ski retailer. I am the money half of the ski buying team, ie, I decide where we spend our money. Industry is 95% male at the top. I was at a demo waiting to get skis set up for me, totally ignored in favour of all the men waiting for skis, finally get asked what skis I want and where I'm from. Said I'm from The Huge Retailer, got asked what shop I worked in... explained I am actually the purchaser, not a shop girl, and suddenly had everyone on the stand falling all over themselves to help me.

NumberTheory · 11/02/2023 04:19

I worked in tech until 10 years ago and it happened to me a fair bit. Not the tea making, which has generally been an everyone for themself type of thing, but when I was managing teams and projects I was frequently assumed to be more junior or less expert than male reports. Not a problem with people internally, but our teams consulted and clients were frequently phased by it. Female clients just initially and adjusted once we made roles clear. But several male clients aimed every question at male colleagues or asked them to confirm my analysis. And at conferences, whilst most people were fine, there were always some that were condescending or outright misogynistic.

Valeriekat · 11/02/2023 04:20

Mark19735 · 10/02/2023 23:13

Hate to say it, but it's only status-obsessed people with a high need for social approval that even give a shit about this sort of thing.

Most people with genuine gravitas and authority couldn't care less. They'll make the brews, and they'll take the brews that others make for them. without a second thought about what it means or how looks. It's inconsequential trivia.

Obsessing about symbols of power and prestige is one of the clearest signals that reveals you don't really merit it.

Are you a man?

Aintnosupermum · 11/02/2023 04:22

I’m treated disgracefully at work all the time. I’m paid very well which softens the blow. Truth is, if I was male, I’d be client facing, earn 2x what I make now and I’d have a more senior title.

There has been a silent push back of women’s rights in the past few years. It’s nasty. I’m often confused for the admin. I just say, oh that would be x you need to speak to. I have young kids trying it on with me. I’m almost old enough to be their mother as 20 years older than them. The arrogance is astonishing.

daretodenim · 11/02/2023 05:02

VeronicaFranklin · 10/02/2023 21:39

I was once asked in a meeting if I could 'pop out to the shop' to get one of the male managers some Sudafed as he had a cold and was struggling and 'if it isn't too much trouble to grab everyone a Starbucks on the way back would be really helpful'

So I did as asked without question.

When I came back 20 mins later, the meeting hadn't started, everyone sat around looking awkward because as a senior manager, I was chairing it... and consequently everyone was kept an hour later. They assumption was I was a junior note taker, being the only female in the room.

Shit situation but I love your response to it!

AuntSallie · 11/02/2023 05:07

This is 100% why I liked the military, all our ranks are on our email/messenger names so this sort of disrespect and insubordination can’t happen.

There’s nothing stopping the private sector from doing similar

VioletPickles · 11/02/2023 05:16

Different sector obvs, but I’m an exfirefighter and on incidents would be dressed in exactly the same fire kit as the men, on the same appliance, carrying the same tools etc etc.

But again and again I’d be asked, by the public, if I did the admin/ post incident cleanup.

NatashaDancing · 11/02/2023 05:22

GiltEdges · 11/02/2023 03:34

Frankly this just makes you look stupid. Why didn’t you say “No, I’m chairing the meeting, he can get his own Sudafed”? Instead, to make a point, you apparently went along with it and delayed the start of your own meeting. How utterly unprofessional.

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Agreed. It really does. It wasn't out of order to ask if there was painkillers available, asking the way he did was arrogant but that passive aggressive response was just silly.