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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How much does my tenant owe me?

521 replies

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:25

Hi all,

I’ve had a tenant in my flat on for a few years. She’s been on a rolling contract since the first six months. She normally pays rent on the 11th of the month for the month ahead.

I gave her notice on 22nd January, that I would need the flat back by 16th April. (Under a rolling contract I need to give 2 months notice, but I wanted to let her know earlier rather than later, to give her some time to sort something).

On the 4th February she informed me she had found somewhere and would be moving out probably around the middle of February. I followed up today and asked if she had a date. She told me yes- she’s moving out on the 18th and will return on the 20th to clean the place.

How much rent does she owe me? She’s already paid until the 11th. She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th , but in the rolling contract she’s supposed to give me one months notice so I feel like she should pay until the 4th March.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Zuma76 · 11/02/2023 17:12

C8H10N4O2 · 11/02/2023 15:35

And yet you, also, were giving an answer whilst saying you don't know the answer.

Deregulation of the rental market in England and Wales has led to so many bad and incompetent hobby landlords that I long since reached the point of thinking that any would be LL should be given a choice - do the homework and pass a basic competency test or pay a professional to manage the property (with the budget to do so effectively).

Also demonstrate that there is enough money in the business to run it properly. That includes cashflow to manage repairs, maintain the building and manage short periods between lets where there is no rent.

This isn't a business making cakes or providing some elective service - if you choose to go into business providing the roof over peoples' heads, those people deserve to know the LL is competent contractually and financially.

Show quote history

You are completely right. I shouldn’t have given an opinion.

DoctorManhattan · 11/02/2023 17:15

I’m a landlord, and have had numerous tenants who have caused issues or incurred damage. I’m fortunate that the last one and current one have been fantastic and look after the place. My opinion? If she has been no hassle and kept the place tidy and presentable, then just let it go. I take the stance the the vast bulk of a mortgage on my rental is being paid off by a tenant - as is yours - so at the end of the day, we end up with a property that’s mortgage free and has cost us comparatively little. If there is the odd month’s payment due to tenant change or overlapping notice periods, it can be taken on the chin.

FeinCuroxiVooz · 11/02/2023 17:17

legally if you took her to court for it, you could probably enforce her paying until the 11th March, as the contractual notice applies from rent day to rent day.

a good person would not enforce this. they would realise that their good fortune in having been lucky enough to be in the position to own a property and benefit from the rent of another person as well as their wealth increasing from property values, plus the good fortune of having had a good tenant who didn't cause problems and is leaving on good terms when asked, is such a valuable unearned gift that the couple of weeks rent difference is tiny in comparison.

Mysonwontwash · 11/02/2023 17:34

Stop being so grabby

JPod · 11/02/2023 17:45

Sadly you’d actually be breaking the law so asking for her to pay extra rent would be unethical and potentially cost you a lot more.

Once an eviction notice is served by the landlord, the tenancy ends upon the date at which the tenant relinquishes their key.

It is good that you provided several months notice, and it sounds like your tenant is being ultra respectful in returning to clean.

If you were to charge them for an extra month, they could report you for unfair terms and also ensure that you haven’t missed any important laws (I.e deposit protection).

Given that you have had several years of rent from them, appear to have a good rapport and also will be wanting to move back into that property, you may wish to avoid doing anything that could sully the relationship and cause tension or concern to your physical property.

Disclaimer: I am neither a landlord or a lawyer, however I am a tenant of a rogue landlord and am starting a legal process against him very soon so incredibly au fait with tenancy laws and eviction requirements.

MyStarBoy · 11/02/2023 17:49

In life a bit of give and take and goodwill go a long long way.

I think you're being greedy and unreasonable.

She could have made it really difficult for you, but she hasn't!

You've asked for a vote - how about looking at that? Currently it's 80% AGAINST you.

Sennelier1 · 11/02/2023 18:21

@golaz In Belgium you only have to give notice if and when you are the one rupturing the contract. If your landlord has given notice the contract is considered to be allready broken 🤷🏼‍♀️

Original poster
Golaz · 11/02/2023 22:43

C8H10N4O2 · 11/02/2023 15:35

And yet you, also, were giving an answer whilst saying you don't know the answer.

Deregulation of the rental market in England and Wales has led to so many bad and incompetent hobby landlords that I long since reached the point of thinking that any would be LL should be given a choice - do the homework and pass a basic competency test or pay a professional to manage the property (with the budget to do so effectively).

Also demonstrate that there is enough money in the business to run it properly. That includes cashflow to manage repairs, maintain the building and manage short periods between lets where there is no rent.

This isn't a business making cakes or providing some elective service - if you choose to go into business providing the roof over peoples' heads, those people deserve to know the LL is competent contractually and financially.

Show quote history

I just don’t agree with this at all.

(Never mind the fact that I was actually correct about the law in my original OP , and have been given completely erroneous advice by most of the people on this thread who claim to be LL - and even lawyers - but we’ll leave that minor point aside).

I never wanted to make renting property my business, I have a job. I bought a place to live, due to life circumstances, I was elsewhere for a few years. I had a place that was empty. Someone else wanted to live in that place. We entered into a contract that mutually suited both of us.

would it be better if the place was just left empty when there are people needing housing?

OP posts:
Original poster
Golaz · 11/02/2023 22:45

YankeeDad · 11/02/2023 13:36

@Golaz I think part of what is bothering you is that while you want to be fair to your tenant, you also want to be fair to yourself.

You can define "fair" to yourself as maximising that to which you are commercially and legally entitled as per the contract and the law, or you can define it as being commercially pragmatic, which sometimes means being a little bit more than fair and settling for a little bit less than your legal entitlement in order to get what is more important for yourself.

My vote would be for "commercially pragmatic" in your case. Given that your highest priority is getting the place back for April 16th, I would fully concur with most of the PPs who are saying, regardless of whether you could or could not legally demand rental payment for a longer period, it is probably in your best interest to let it go.

Under applicable law, I believe that the tenant could do various things to stay in the flat for longer, if she so chooses. She could potentially have tried to stay until after no fault evictions stop being allowed, which could make it very difficult or even impossible to get your place back for your own use. In fact they might still be legally able to do that. So I would also concur with previous posters who advise making absolutely sure you have dotted the "I"s and crossed the "T"s for getting the tenant out, perhaps even paying for an hour of legal advice, and then I would try not to do anything else that might make her reconsider her willingness to move out rather than using her various legal means of staying in the property for longer.

If there is a small void period before you move back in then perhaps you could put that to good use by doing any minor refurbishments that might be needed to make it a nice home for yourself very often a place that has been lived in could benefit from a new coat of paint, or with some carpet changes and that is much easier with an empty place!

Thank you, this is good advice

OP posts:
Original poster
Golaz · 11/02/2023 22:47

WhatsitWiggle · 11/02/2023 13:38

You served a section 21 notice. This is not a notice to quit, it tells the tenant the date you'd like the property back. But if the tenant hadn't found somewhere else, she could have stayed past that date, and you would have had to go to court to get an eviction notice. You couldn't have just turned up on 16 April and turfed her out.

By law, your tenant still needs to give a month's notice. That can be given at any time, it does not have to be linked to the rental payment date. She's given you two weeks notice. It's up to you if you pursue her for the unpaid rent, from 20 Feb (when she hands the keys back) to 4 Mar. Bearing in mind if she doesn't pay up, you'd have to take her to court.

Thank you, that’s clear. It seems very few people are actually aware of this.

OP posts:
XanaduKira · 11/02/2023 22:49

I think most people are aware @Golaz but they're hoping you'll do the decent thing given you had already given her notice & not look to charge her past the date she's leaving.

WhatsitWiggle · 11/02/2023 23:53

@XanaduKira a lot of people are incorrectly advising that because the section 21 notice has been given, that the tenant didn't need to give notice and therefore only has to pay to her leaving date.

Both parties enter into a contract, the terms of which are very clear and agreed upon. It seems because we're talking property, OP is expected to waive her contractual rights.

Legally, she is entitled to this rent, which is what she sought clarification on. Commercially or morally are different matters entirely.

Nocutenamesleft · 12/02/2023 00:16

@WhatsitWiggle I also said this further up the thread that the tenant is still under contract despite the section 21 so legally has to give notice (which in this case is a month..). Glad someone else said this. But @Golaz did post this also.

Nocutenamesleft · 12/02/2023 00:22

Kentlassie · 11/02/2023 17:00

I posted an almost identical question earlier this week. If you’ve served a s21 my understanding is the tenant can leave at amy point within that period, so she owes you until the date she is leaving.

What type of contract is it? If it's rolling then it would be a months notice.

NewbieoneKinewbie · 12/02/2023 08:54

skoobidoop · 11/02/2023 10:56

it's all just discussion, as unless the deposit is in a protection scheme and you are up to date with all the gas/electricity certification etc even the notice request you've issued isn't enforceable.
The right thing is the tenant pays rent until they hand the keys back. If you push for rent after they have left, you are in highly questionable territory legally.
*my partner is a housing officer

Show quote history

The deposit in a proper deposit protection scheme is essential yes
otherwise you can’t legally issue a Section 21

is it in one of the schemes, Golaz? In which case they would advise you of any rent due to you

Teentrauma · 12/02/2023 09:22

Under the rolling contract she should give you one month's notice. Therefore, she should pay until 4th March. Although you had already given notice to her, she still has to serve notice back to you if she wants to leave earlier, which she has done.

Michellelovesizzy · 12/02/2023 17:39

I don’t think she does as u have given notice

CelestiaNoctis · 12/02/2023 17:40

Get a job, you leech.

AllyArty · 12/02/2023 17:42

We have all heard horror stories of tenants leaving their accommodation in a terrible state. Being a good tenant counts for a lot. You want your flat back, you seem to have got what you wanted without any unpleasantness so I would take a week and wish her all the best. 😊

user1472151176 · 12/02/2023 17:49

I would get advice from CAB. I think they only need to pay up to the point they leave. You served them notice so they can leave any time in that 2 month period but I dont think they're responsible to pay rent for those 2 months if they've found somewhere else to live before that 2 months is up. They are responsible for a full month if they give you notice that they're leaving. To be honest if they're happily going and are going to clean then you're very lucky to end on good terms.

payens · 12/02/2023 18:03

If she was giving notice the one month notice period would apply. However as you have given notice to her she just pays pro rata up until the day she vacates the property

sassyclassyandsmartassy · 12/02/2023 18:03

The legal position is that your notice doesn’t legally befate her need to give notice. She is, legally, still required to give you a months notice and I am legally qualified to advise this.

That being said I do agree with other posters that I can’t see the point in souring relations for the sake of a couple of weeks.

However the tenant y cannot be legally ended in any fashion until she returns the keys and will not be rear tending the premises.

I advise any LL to join the NRLA if you don’t use and agent rather than asking questions on MN.

milveycrohn · 12/02/2023 18:08

The Tenant is still supposed to give you one month's notice, even though you have given her more than 2 months notice to quit.
This happened to my DS; he was the tenant, so I made enquiries, and that is what I discovered.
In the end he and the landlord came to an agreement and split the difference; ie on the lines of, if he was leaving after 2 weeks notice, he gave her an extra week.
The landlord did not have to agree to this, but they agreed this between themselves.

Dibbydoos · 12/02/2023 18:14

She owes you 1 month's rent, OP. It's up to you to press for this or advise you will use her deposit for unpaid rent.

Sudoku88 · 12/02/2023 18:14

As a LL myself I’d say let it go. Be thankful she is leaving without causing any problems- counts for a hell of a lot.