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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?

713 replies

WarWhatIsItGoodFor · 08/02/2023 21:18

Exactly that. Why are UK politicians lapping it all up and hanging on to his every word? The laughter from MPs when he said he enjoyed English tea but now wants English planes… in what sense is that funny? He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction. I hope this doesn’t lead to Russian retaliation.

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6
Santasjingleballs · 08/02/2023 23:36

🤣

To think the adoration of Zelensky in the UK feels very wrong?
Hill1991 · 08/02/2023 23:37

ellyeth · 08/02/2023 23:33

I thought his feeble comment about tea was neither funny nor appropriate when there is a bloody war going on.

I don't know either why Zelensky is being treated like some sort of a saint or why he appears to be able to demand arms, jets and manpower from all and sundry.

Why isn't anyone trying to put together some sort of peace talks instead of just supplying more arms so that more and more people can be killed?

I think the situation re Russia and Ukraine is far more complicated than our media presents it to be.

Because putin isn't interested in peace talks he wants control, if he takes Ukraine Poland will be next I'd be surprised if he's hasn't already got a plan for Poland

CPL593H · 08/02/2023 23:38

ellyeth · 08/02/2023 23:33

I thought his feeble comment about tea was neither funny nor appropriate when there is a bloody war going on.

I don't know either why Zelensky is being treated like some sort of a saint or why he appears to be able to demand arms, jets and manpower from all and sundry.

Why isn't anyone trying to put together some sort of peace talks instead of just supplying more arms so that more and more people can be killed?

I think the situation re Russia and Ukraine is far more complicated than our media presents it to be.

In simple terms, the West is at war with Russia. However, the moment official UK/EU/US boots are on the ground in Ukraine means huge and unpredictable escalation, so we are letting them do the fighting for us. In so doing, we have to arm them properly.

NumberTheory · 08/02/2023 23:38

Genevieva · 08/02/2023 23:04

@NumberTheory Thank you for a nuanced and thoughtful opinion. I don't agree with you on the weapons front (or at least I am extremely circumspect about giving Ukraine our fighter jets) but I do appreciate your insight and the logic in your argument.

Yes, I also have some reservations about some weaponry and the impact on our capability. Thinking we should support Ukraine with weapons doesn’t mean I think we should send everything over there. It’s a difficult balance.

PerkingFaintly · 08/02/2023 23:39

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/02/2023 23:24

It's a shill. There are unfortunately considerable Russian-funded propaganda farms; some of them are automated, eg on Twitter, some of them have real people.

There are characteristics you can look out for:

1 - no engagement with provable facts that have been independently assessed. When you counter their bonkers stuff with this evidence, they don't address it

2 - a significant inclination to push the rather ridiculous lines eg Nazi nonsense. From observation over the last 12 months it seems that Russia does not see Nazism as an evil that led to invasion over all of Europe and the Holocaust; it seems that Russia sees anyone who they dislike as 'Nazis' (Russia actually signed a peace treaty with the Nazis, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, until Hitler broke it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact)

3 - vague claims when faced with evidence that "people are seeing through to reality"

4 - urging you "have you considered that... " and then something that's quietly anti-Western, without ever balancing that with what Russia has done (bearing in mind Chechnya, South Ossetia, Syria)

5 - a vague and illogical 'concern for the people of Ukraine' again without considering that the people of Ukraine would not be suffering if Russia hadn't invaded.

6 - No acknowledgement that Russia has called for the eradication of Ukrainian culture and people.

7- No acknowledgement of Russian war crimes

It used to be that you could also add:

8- No shade thrown on Putin ever. More than the trolls' lives were worth.

Very interesting that that's now changed. Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine stalled I've noticed a willingness to add comments like the "Christ alone knows he is not a nice guy" above. While still vehemently supporting the invasion and boosting Russia.

Gives weight to the notion that Prigozhin, owner of the IRA troll farm in St Petersburg, is the one throwing his weight around here. And he's not afraid to prod Putin with something pointy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Prigozhin

Now then, I wonder if the Prigozhin's trolls are allowed to diss Prigozhin...?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/02/2023 23:41

One note about Ukraine and the Russian language: a lot of the Ukrainians I have met (quite a few by now), some of whom are from the East, are now choosing to speak exclusively Ukrainian rather than Russian, even though Russian is their first language and the one they are more comfortable in.

I am told that this is a cultural change - it's individuals choosing to speak Ukrainian, even tho it's less comfortable - since Feb 22.

PitYerTapOan · 08/02/2023 23:42

I think there's a difference between a bot and a paid social media poster as it goes.

Don't bots just run and run? I mean they don't need any input apart from the initial set up, do they?

They're algorithms.

But then there are actual people who also get paid by lots of different governments to go on websites and say things.

Obviously Russia has them. I think the UK government must do too - I wondered about some of the discourse on here in the covid threads in particular. Would make sense if the USA also employs people to do similar but probably not on Mumsnet because people don't talk about the USA much on here apart from to say that everyone who lives there is bankrupt due to having to pay for medical treatment.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/02/2023 23:45

Gives weight to the notion that Prigozhin, owner of the IRA troll farm in St Petersburg, is the one throwing his weight around here. And he's not afraid to prod Putin with something pointy.

that ... makes sense.

At the beginning of the war criticism of Putin was unthinkable, but it seems to be creeping in now. Prigozhin's influence has extended a great deal and since he promised to deliver Bakhmut within a couple of months, failed, and Putin put his faith in Gerasimov instead ... it's notable the shills are criticising Putin now. Prigozhin has ambitions ...

PitYerTapOan · 08/02/2023 23:45

In simple terms, the West is at war with Russia.

No we are not. Why the fuck would you say that? Do you seriously not even know when you are and are not at war? For fucks' sakes.

Genevieva · 08/02/2023 23:48

@PerkingFaintly Interesting link. I am learning loads. I need to look back for the 'Christ alone' comment now as I have only identified one bot. The whole bot farm thing is quite 1984. I have long wondered how this war is 'sold' to the people of Russia. Presumably the main job of these bots is to influence domestic audiences, rather than international ones. Do accusations of Nazism really wash in Russia? Zelensky has Jewish ancestry doesn't he? He would have been forced to wear a yellow star and sent to a concentration camp in the 30s and 40s.

Genevieva · 08/02/2023 23:49

@PitYerTapOan Presumably it is some sort of Cold War analogy. But an extremely limited one.

CPL593H · 08/02/2023 23:50

PitYerTapOan · 08/02/2023 23:45

In simple terms, the West is at war with Russia.

No we are not. Why the fuck would you say that? Do you seriously not even know when you are and are not at war? For fucks' sakes.

Yes, we are. Of course it's not spoken, but we effectively are. Or do you think that this level of sanctions and the President of an invaded country being cheered to the rafters by our MPs every time he criticised that invasion is a sign that we are in peaceful accord? Do you not think directly supplying Ukraine with armaments to fight Russia with is another sign of harmony with Moscow?

We are, however, not fighting directly, as the Ukrainians are doing that.

29052022J · 08/02/2023 23:53

Genevieva · 08/02/2023 23:48

@PerkingFaintly Interesting link. I am learning loads. I need to look back for the 'Christ alone' comment now as I have only identified one bot. The whole bot farm thing is quite 1984. I have long wondered how this war is 'sold' to the people of Russia. Presumably the main job of these bots is to influence domestic audiences, rather than international ones. Do accusations of Nazism really wash in Russia? Zelensky has Jewish ancestry doesn't he? He would have been forced to wear a yellow star and sent to a concentration camp in the 30s and 40s.

There are propaganda news channels in Russia and we subscribe to a Latvian/Russian tv package and also get the Russian propaganda news channels. It’s pretty shocking/laughable the things they say but lots of people are believing it. Don’t forget how rural and vast Russia is, there are a lot of people who genuinely believe the news they are watching - they have watched it their whole lives. I would laugh but with family in Ukraine and our family and friends being killed - it’s not really laughable.

PeanutButterSmoothie · 08/02/2023 23:53

I don't understand the logic of 'keeping our weapons for when we need them'. If we don't help arm Ukraine there is going to be much more chance that we will in fact need them in the near future.

But I guess at least our husbands and sons will have decent weapons when they end up on the frontlines, eh?

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/02/2023 23:53

@Genevieva the bot farms and shills are hard at work trying to influence the Western countries. Plus Russian money influencing Brexit probably:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum

"The Russia Report" published by the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament in July 2020 did not specifically address the Brexit campaign, but it concluded that Russian interference in UK politics is commonplace.[4][5] It also found substantial evidence that there had been interference in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. [6][5]

DdraigGoch · 08/02/2023 23:58

Yes, and they were fine with that. It was a happily bi-lingual land. Until Russia created strife in the Donbas after invading Crimea. You're aware that a LOT of the Ukrainian volunteers have Russian as their first language and still fight the invaders?

Indeed, Zelensky is one of many Russian-speaking Ukrainians who have switched to using the Ukrainian language since the 2014 invasion. Many who would have been sympathetic to Russia in 2013 but found themselves fleeing west in 2014 are now some of the most determined Ukrainians.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 08/02/2023 23:59

There also seems to be a number of straws in the wind that Russia or Russian businessmen have ... ties ... with Trump:

www.cnbc.com/2022/11/18/gop-operative-convicted-of-funneling-russian-donation-to-trumps-2016-campaign-.html

www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2020/07/10/does-trump-owe-russia-the-supreme-courts-ruling-on-the-presidents-taxes-may-eventually-give-us-answers/

I don't know how reliable this site is but it also implies the same: www.americanprogress.org/article/following-the-money/

Genevieva · 08/02/2023 23:59

@29052022J I am so sorry to hear that. It is truly heart breaking. I hope your friends and family are safe now. But most of all I hope that there is some way of getting to a point when the end is in sight.

@WarWhatIsItGoodFor Thank you for starting an interesting thread. I have learnt a lot.

PitYerTapOan · 09/02/2023 00:00

@Genevieva it was me who made the "Christ alone knows" comment and I am certainly not a bot.

I am also sceptical about the notion that '
it seems that Russia does not see Nazism as an evil that led to invasion over all of Europe and the Holocaust given that Russia was heavily decimated by the Nazis. The insane amounts of russian dead due to their campaign of attrition broke the nazi back and brought about the end to the European segment of WwII and russians know this.

Sure, Russia now has its own share of neo Nazis and indeed its own shady neo Nazi private quasi army - same as lots of other countries in the region including Ukraine - that it keeps very quiet about. But your average Russian knows plenty about the third Reich.

donquixotedelamancha · 09/02/2023 00:02

Oh for fuck's sake, more of this nonsense. It's amazing how many posters seem to join MN just to say we shouldn't support Ukraine in case Russia starts a war.

He is wanting war planes to cause more bloodshed, death and destruction.

Yeah, if only we'd had no planes against Hitler, WW2 would have been far less violent and we could all have just talked it out.

Genevieva · 09/02/2023 00:05

@PitYerTapOan Thanks. No I don't think you are a bot. And I appreciate diversity of opinion on Mumsnet threads. I am generally anti-war. Not a complete pacifist, but I struggle with the lack of serious attempts at non-violent engagement. Yet I can also see that there is a kind of madness to a regime that operates bot farms as a strategy for keeping control of the population. And you can't reason with madness. Or with evil for that matter and I am increasingly convinced that evil is real. It is far too late and I Strat work at 8am so I am off now, but thank you.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 09/02/2023 00:08

Sure, Russia now has its own share of neo Nazis and indeed its own shady neo Nazi private quasi army - same as lots of other countries in the region including Ukraine - that it keeps very quiet about. But your average Russian knows plenty about the third Reich.

Right now Russia is pushing the line that it did it all on its own.

it isn't true.

ru.usembassy.gov/world-war-ii-allies-u-s-lend-lease-to-the-soviet-union-1941-1945/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease

Even before the United States entered World War II in December 1941, America sent arms and equipment to the Soviet Union to help it defeat the Nazi invasion. Totaling $11.3 billion, or $180 billion in today’s currency, the Lend-Lease Act of the United States supplied needed goods to the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1945 in support of what Stalin described to Roosevelt as the “enormous and difficult fight against the common enemy — bloodthirsty Hitlerism.”

400,000 jeeps & trucks

14,000 airplanes

8,000 tractors

13,000 tanks

1.5 million blankets

15 million pairs of army boots

107,000 tons of cotton

2.7 million tons of petrol products

4.5 million tons of food

if you want to know how Russian soldiers behaved in their 'defeat' of Nazism, read "A Woman in Berlin" by Anonymous, or read accounts of grandparental experience of what happened when the Russian troops came through
www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Berlin-Virago-Modern-Classics/dp/1844087972

and then read the stories of what's happening in Ukraine now, where the Russians have occupied towns.

Before this war, I thought Russia was a modernizing land. In truth, I think now that the culture is medieval .. .and I've seen some of the best and also the worst of UK towns and behaviour. But the UK, for all its very serious social problems, is worlds above the Russian army in terms of behaviour, training, skills and decency.

PitYerTapOan · 09/02/2023 00:15

@Genevieva cheers. I'm also largely anti war. I can't think of a single war post WWII that's justifiable . Mostly it's politico posturing and modern warfare ie any war post Boer means huge loss of civilian life which is morally abhorrent.

But that said given that we do keep on having goddamn wars we owe it to ourselves to have a clear headed view about why any particular one happens. And I think lazily ascribing paddington good guy/insane bad guy roles to key actors doesn't help us do that.

MysteryBelle · 09/02/2023 00:15

A former literal clown tippy toeing in high heels and tights acting the fool is now raking in billions and billions as the president of a country, a country whose government just happened to have taken bribes to hide Biden’s crime family dealings, or else, as Biden threatened publicly to withhold aid if investigator wasn’t called off. Interesting coincidence.

Billions and billions, where exactly are those billions going, they don’t seem to have to provide accountability to the masses who are funding them.

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