To think that boys groping girls is not part of the 'the normal sexual dance' but is sexual assault?

[Clymene]

There's an article in the Sunday Times today by a psychologist saying that Me Too has gone too far and lots of teenage boys are suffering.

She said: “I like #MeToo and would like to give the woman who started it an award but I think it has gone too far. Now any boy who puts a hand on a bosom because he is slightly drunk and has not asked is being in danger of being ostracised and shamed. Girls are viewing teenage boys as aggressive predators. So the normal sexual dance that has gone for ever now seems not OK. Boys are losing their feet.”

This woman seems to think girls should stop making such a fuss because boys went through lockdown so they're all very immature. We don't know what she thinks about the impact of girls going through lockdown as she doesn't seem to be interested in them.

If boys lives are being 'wrecked' because they sexually assaulted a girl, my suggestion is that they don't sexually assault girls.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ac7c5012-a40e-11ed-9d5c-69bd3c5b98b3?shareToken=3491fa7737a645108929eebc50b420322_

BabDoc
I saw your comment on the Sunday Times article and 'liked it' Strangely my own politely worded comment about the "poor boys" who just happen to touch a girl's bosom without consent and are rebuked for it - did not appear!

I was amazed by how many mothers came on the thread to defend their "lovely" sons. The whole tone of the article was about boys' problems and not the girls' who some feel free to touch up. No empathy for them, just a sense that they would make unreasonable capital somehow out of this issue. One woman said that all girls were manipulative Machiavellians.

How did you make up that scenario from what was in the article:

Now any boy who puts a hand on a bosom because he is slightly drunk and has not asked is being in danger of being ostracised and shamed.

?

As I said, there's a fine line. Where exactly you draw it I don't know.

There's no fine line.

Okay. As an adult woman I draw a line. If a man is drunk and touches me that is sexual assault.

If my daughter is 15 and a boy touches her without asking that is?

Answers please. The law says sexual assault but are there some other answers because she is young?

I cant’s see a comment section on that article?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4736087-what-was-this-man-up-to?reply=123661104

Lesbians and bisexual women and girls seem to know where the line is when it comes to the sexual harassment, assault and rape of women and girls is.

My DS is 16 years old
and is not remotely confused about what is and isn’t acceptable. He would never brush up against a girl or grab her boobs. Boys aren’t Alsations- they’re perfectly capable of controlling themselves.

Pedant alert!

the lady in question is described as a psychotherapist. This is an unregulated title so could mean she had amazing qualifications of none. She is not a clinical psychologist.

God, I realise I don't actually know what's allowed anymore. Can you lock eyes with someone and kiss or does there need to be formal permission now? Thank goodness I'm out of the dating game.

You cannot see the difference between what you listed and groping someone nonconsensually?

Nothing pisses abusers off more than women having boundaries (and standards).

I'm being serious actually and yes I do have boundaries of course. But if you misread the signals and didn't have verbal permission wouldn't kissing someone on the lips be considered a sexual assault too? Your reply indicates there's a difference but I don't get why.

I last dated in the 90s and there has been such a change since then. Of course I don't think women should be groped or harrassed, absolutely not, but if a couple were kissing in the 90s and a boy touched a breast or a girl put a hand on a bum without express permission, well, it wasn't considered sexual assault then. However, if the advance were unwelcome and brushed away and the other person persisted that definitely crossed the line. That was then. Obviously things have changed a lot and I genuinely don't know the exact rules anymore.

From your answer I still don't know if locking eyes and kissing without verbal permission is okay these days? Is it okay if you read the signals right but assault if you get them confused at all? Or is it never okay now?

OP, I entirely agree. I had to have a good rant on fb, shouting into the void because no-one will ever read it. The 'grope' as described is a sexual assault, and that psychotherapist thinks women and girls should accept that so that boys aren't upset.

I'm an old fart, and last dated in the 90's. If a person touched my arse or my tit without my consent, yes, it was sexual assault, as far as I was concerned. However, this opinion was not universal.

Interestingly, men seemed to consider that non-consensual touching of their junk was assault. Had quite firm opinions on that.

So is it just women/girls that should allow their bodies to be used for the purposes of training?

That comparison with offering tea doesn't really work in Ireland where I am!! Here it's considered polite to repeatedly press tea on someone and not to take no for an answer!! It's also considered polite to initially refuse an offer of a cup of tea even if you're gasping for one. The whole practice was caricatured by Mrs Doyle in Fr Ted.

Just another dick panderer/handmaiden/‘pick me’.

And the discussion about whether she’s a mother of sons or daughters is so tiresome. You know what would be great, is if people cared about women and girls because women and girls are human beings. Not just because they happen to ‘own’ a woman (ie have a daughter). Women’s rights are important irrespective of the sex of your children. I say that as a mother of sons.

I think the difference in the 90s was the process of obtaining consent.
It wasn't verbal permission accquired beforehand in the 90s. It was tentative touching to see how far you could go. If the other person liked it and was happy to continue, great. If not, you were expected to stop immediately. The difference then was the initial touch of a breast would not be considered sexual assault if the couple was already being intimate ie kissing.
That was my experience in the 90s anyway.

Came to MN just to see if this article was being discussed!

We cannot have any iota of sunlight on the plight of the toxic misogyny girls are growing up in without someone - and sadly often a women - saying ‘oh the poor boys…’

Just FUCK OFF. Put your professional expertise into sorting out the misogynistic culture and inappropriate sexualised male expectations first you silly woman.

Yup, I remember the 90s too, blokes pushing boundries to see how far they could go, girls freezing up because they were scared to say no, blokes assuming that they had free reign to do what they like because you were kissing them, nobody being interested if you happened to be kissing someone and got sexually assaulted because you were being a 'tease'.... what a time to be alive.

It takes 2 seconds to say "is it ok/would you like me to touch you".

The 'initial unsolicited touch' is not tentative touching, it's boundary pushing. Consent is key, always.

Yes well these boys grow up to be men who are also pushy, who don't care about consent. Starts somewhere.

Thanks, GalaApples! Your comment might have appeared later if it was awaiting moderation - possibly the word “bosom” might have triggered the censor bot?

I'll be honest. In clubs and whatever, I've had my bum and boobs touched and whilst it wasn't always exactly welcome, I didn't really care. Certainly never termed it a sexual assault.

I’ve got sons and I’m not a wanker.

This.

The other thing about this article is just how well off families (this being the Times) are affected. You have to have plenty of money to afford a criminal defence lawyer from Kingsley Napley.

This isn't ignorance, it's entitlement.