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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask for ex to pay for childcare on his days

76 replies

Amblu81 · 03/02/2023 07:39

Will try to summarise.

Myself and kids Dad split March 2021. Due to lack of finances I stayed in the house and lived in the dining room. He point blank refused to move out of house and to preserve my mental health I managed to find somewhere to rent and moved out Feb 2022 (had to save for deposit and rural area with very few affordable rentals)
Two kids 13 and 8.
We were never married.
He remained in house jointly owned and has agreed to pay me 50% equity when fixed rate ends in November this year. Truly gutted as I loved that house but her ho.

He is self employed specialist groundworker. Income unknown and will not confirm. Accounts on companies house are only basic ones so dont show income.

I am part time employed and self employed trying to pursue my own wedding business (Fridays/Saturdays). Had to take on extra work to afford rent and cost of living crisis. Was very lucky to find something I know.

Kids stay with me mostly. Youngest with me 5 days a week, eldest 6 days a week. Ex has kids 3 weekends out of 4. I have them other weekend. Kids come back to me 1pm Sunday.

All is working really well, or so I thought.

Ex calls mediation this week. We attend and he would now like

  • every other weekend off so that he can have a social life. (he has now changed this arguement to 'so he can work')
  • Have kids one night in the week. Pick up then drop of at school or breakfast club depending on his work. He says he wants to spend more time with them yet wants to send them back to me.

I say yes to him having kids for one night in the week as youngest has expressed a wish to spend more time with his Dad. I put in a caveat that Ex pays for childcare for that 24 hour period. Ex point blank refuses and says he will take it out of maintenance.

Mediator suggests I have kids Friday and Saturday night and all day Sunday for the extra weekend with me. Then ex has them whilst I work. I tend to co-ordinate the day so at work from 8am to 6pm plus driving time to and from venues. Reluctantly I say yes to this as it seems the only compromise. Ex point blank refuses again.

Now we are at stalemate.

To give you some idea he pays £75 pw maintenance. Childcare costs £14 per day afterschool, £5 per day breakfast, £52 per day holiday club.

We have very little family to help out.

To confirm I am more than happy for him to see his kids and am not denying him access.

I have a voucher scheme through work but still comes out of my wage and nowhere near covers it during school holidays.

AIBU to expect him to provide 1 days childcare? To comply with his wishes means I have to give up an extra days imcome and is going to look shocking to my new clients where I am trying to push my business!!!

Thanks all.

OP posts:
Tiani4 · 05/02/2023 15:19

Extra childcare dates not data I meant

Seashor · 05/02/2023 15:29

Is he paying you rent to stay in your house?

Original poster
Amblu81 · 05/02/2023 22:17

@Tiani4 thank you. We have purely been through mediatior so far, no court yet but I feel it is the only way. No clue how I will afford it!!!
@Seashor he does not pay me rent but I do not contribute to the mortgage either so we decided with mediator that it was evens

OP posts:
Radiodread · 05/02/2023 22:33

It's so depressing isn't it? I'm relatively lucky in that me and my ex had similar earning power and he has them 50% of the time, and splits costs.

But I have so much sympathy for women who are literally left holding the baby. It's shit. The whole system is totally broken and unfit for purpose :( The hiding money in companies is especially awful. But, you did the right thing by getting away, as he is not the kind of man you want to be around.

Original poster
Amblu81 · 06/02/2023 07:08

Funnily enough we never got married as he felt it was a womans way of taking more of his money if they ever split. And I left it so long to leave him as he forever was telling me how useless I was with money and that I would never cope! I am so glad to be away from him and doing it alone

OP posts:
bumpytrumpy · 06/02/2023 07:13

If he's hiding his income he's going to struggle to get the mortgage in his own name to buy you out in November. Something doesn't add up there

GirlsNightOut33 · 06/02/2023 08:21

Think of any court fees as an investment in securing a legal agreement in future years. Otherwise he's going to string you along like this with everything for years!

He can't argue that you should pay childcare costs for HIS contact time. That's fucking ridiculous. It's his time. Why would you pay for that?!

Get your contact order in place and pay only for what YOU need. His bills and childcare is HIS problem to sort out. Just like other parents. (Of course this means he won't have them. But you will have facilitated and the court will see what an idiot he is.)

The only way to deal with this nonsense is court op. Asap. You'll end up there eventually anyway.

Rip the plaster off now.

Timaya · 06/02/2023 08:27

I actually don't think "EOW so I can have a social life" is even a bad reason tbh, it's one of the joys of being split - you both get some weekends and holidays without the children.

Not sure on maintenance issue re childcare

BibbleandSqwauk · 06/02/2023 08:39

It's straightforward..any childcare on the RPs days has to be paid for by the RP and comes out of maintenance, even though most maintenance won't come close to covering even half (even when any government help is factored in). On NRP days, they should cover it because maintenance is reduced in theory to take expenses of actually having the children into account.

taxpayer1 · 06/02/2023 09:18

BibbleandSqwauk · 06/02/2023 08:39

It's straightforward..any childcare on the RPs days has to be paid for by the RP and comes out of maintenance, even though most maintenance won't come close to covering even half (even when any government help is factored in). On NRP days, they should cover it because maintenance is reduced in theory to take expenses of actually having the children into account.

Your reasoning makes no sense. In your words, the childcare on the RP days must come from child maintenance, but the childcare on the NRP days is his problem.

BibbleandSqwauk · 06/02/2023 10:14

@taxpayer1 sorry, I was posting in a rush. I meant that the assumption is made it comes out of maintenance. The reality is that childcare costs for an RP who has them Mon-Fri are huge and the CMS rate of around 18% of the nrps gross salary, in most cases will not touch the sides of that cost, even if the RP is in receipt of some help via UC, which they are not always.

My personal view is that since childcare allows both parents to work, the total childcare bill should be split equally. If one parent is not working on a day the other is, they can care for the child themselves to reduce the bill, if they so wish. There are problems...some will foist the child off onto a grandparent and have the day to themselves, but that comes under the heading of not being able to control what happens on the other parent's time. They may not agree on the childcare provider but that can be hashed out at mediation / court if necessary. The fundamental point though is that it should be looked at as an entirely separate calculation to general maintenance..and CMS should also have the balls to stare categorically what it is meant to cover, or contribute to, not the current, mealy mouthed "essentials". That leaves RPs who receive CMS only, paying for anything "non essential" like hobbies, for instance, entirely themselves.

taxpayer1 · 06/02/2023 10:28

BibbleandSqwauk · 06/02/2023 10:14

@taxpayer1 sorry, I was posting in a rush. I meant that the assumption is made it comes out of maintenance. The reality is that childcare costs for an RP who has them Mon-Fri are huge and the CMS rate of around 18% of the nrps gross salary, in most cases will not touch the sides of that cost, even if the RP is in receipt of some help via UC, which they are not always.

My personal view is that since childcare allows both parents to work, the total childcare bill should be split equally. If one parent is not working on a day the other is, they can care for the child themselves to reduce the bill, if they so wish. There are problems...some will foist the child off onto a grandparent and have the day to themselves, but that comes under the heading of not being able to control what happens on the other parent's time. They may not agree on the childcare provider but that can be hashed out at mediation / court if necessary. The fundamental point though is that it should be looked at as an entirely separate calculation to general maintenance..and CMS should also have the balls to stare categorically what it is meant to cover, or contribute to, not the current, mealy mouthed "essentials". That leaves RPs who receive CMS only, paying for anything "non essential" like hobbies, for instance, entirely themselves.

I agree. The childcare should be paid by both equally but only after all deductions for tax-free childcare, 15/30 free hours, and universal credit contributions (if any) are taken into account. The net cost should be split equally so both can work.

Goawayangryman · 06/02/2023 10:34

@taxpayer1 erm, no. That's not how it should work when a woman has sacrificed her career to enable the man to develop his. Especially if not married and she therefore has no rights to his pension, and especially not if he is hiding his income and depriving his children of what is rightfully theirs.

Maintenance is to cover the disparity in care costs because one parent has the child less than the other. It is for daily living costs and certainly through CMS is not set at a level to enable full payment of childcare costs for multiple children. You don't pay maintenance on days when you have them, because it is assumed that it is your responsibility on those days to pay all costs.

Original poster
Amblu81 · 06/02/2023 10:37

@bumpytrumpy I suspect his new partner will move in with him and go on mortgage

Everone else, what does RP mean? I am sure it will be something obvious but I am out of coffee in my house so brain not yet at full speed

OP posts:
KateFleming · 06/02/2023 10:43

RP:Resident parent

Original poster
Amblu81 · 06/02/2023 10:52

@KateFleming thank you. Yes, thats obvious now you tell me!

OP posts:
BibbleandSqwauk · 06/02/2023 10:53

@Goawayangryman it's very difficult to quantify that loss of earnings though..it's based on unprovable assumptions about what the stay at home parent would have earned had they stayed in the workplace. They could just as easily been sacked for incompetence. Any huge disparity should be dealt with via the split of proceeds of a house sale but no, without marriage you can't claim on someone else's pension and that is the kind of thing that people should find out about before having children outside of marriage. Otherwise, outwith standard CMS, the two people are separate financial entities.

taxpayer1 · 06/02/2023 10:57

Goawayangryman · 06/02/2023 10:34

@taxpayer1 erm, no. That's not how it should work when a woman has sacrificed her career to enable the man to develop his. Especially if not married and she therefore has no rights to his pension, and especially not if he is hiding his income and depriving his children of what is rightfully theirs.

Maintenance is to cover the disparity in care costs because one parent has the child less than the other. It is for daily living costs and certainly through CMS is not set at a level to enable full payment of childcare costs for multiple children. You don't pay maintenance on days when you have them, because it is assumed that it is your responsibility on those days to pay all costs.

How do you know she had a career in the first place? How do you know she even wanted to work? How do you know she made sacrifices? Are all women martyrs and had sacrificed stellar careers?

Original poster
Amblu81 · 06/02/2023 10:58

For me personally I waa offered the chance to go on a couple of courses which would of allowed me to pursue a role at a management level. I wasnt sure if that is the route I wished to go down but the courses were residential week long courses and after discussing with my partner at the time, he wasn't willing to assist with childcare at the time to enable me to do that. His job meant he had to often leave or return from work well before/after local childcare provisions hours.

OP posts:
tabulahrasa · 06/02/2023 11:01

Amblu81 · 03/02/2023 10:46

No, we haven't gone through CSA. At the time of the split I still had to live in the same home. I have always been nervous to confront him/suggest things he won't like as he used to be volatile. Not do much now but it put me off pushing whilst still under the same roof.

So, I worked out the maintenance based on school dinners, food bill, clothes, school trips, uniform, haircuts and clubs/activities per year, and divided up to make a daily rate of £7.50 per child. I did not include childcare costs in this as the kids are with me all week so took that sd my responsibility.

Also he is self employed and in previous years took a low income and put the remaining 'income' into dividends into his company to avoid tax (he is a sole trader) Pretty sure he is still doing this so any proof of his earnings won't be realistic. It is not illegal to do this either.

Show quote history

Surely the obvious comeback is that childcare wasn’t ever included in maintenance, so if he wants it to be then it’ll be x amount more per week to cover half the childcare or you carry on paying your childcare and he’s responsible for his days.

Goawayangryman · 06/02/2023 11:09

@Amblu81 what a surprise re his assistance with childcare and lack of support for you to develop your career.

If a dude is paying £75 per week for two children whilst earning reasonably well, it's all on him. He is by definition a douche, especially if he has made the OP and two children leave their family home to rent, with only vague promises of equity several months down the line.

ShimmeringShirts · 06/02/2023 11:26

Get a solicitor or you’re going to end up entirely shafted by a useless cunt that claims to be a father.

Autumndays123 · 06/02/2023 11:38

Morally he should pay for it, legally he doesn't have to.

Original poster
Amblu81 · 06/02/2023 11:51

How do people afford solicitors these days? I built up debt prior to the split which I have now almost entirely repaid
... but it has left me with a poor credit score so unlikely to get a loan

OP posts:
ChickenDhansak82 · 06/02/2023 12:49

For the mediation, I would add up the cost of child stuff for the whole year (breakfast/after school club, uniforms, clothes, food, school lunches, holiday clubs etc...) then divide by 52 to give a weekly amount. Then ask him to pay half of this, which I imagine will be more than what he is paying at the moment.

Or... could his weekday be a Monday/Tuesday every other week? So every fortnight he sees them Friday after school until he drops them at school Tuesday morning. He would then need to pay for childcare for Friday after school (if he cannot collect) then Monday (breakfast/After school) and Tuesday breakfast. That would be fair. Then half the school holidays each where you are both responsible for sorting childcare if you cannot take holiday.

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