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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Rape jokes - AIBU?

131 replies

dalecooper · 02/02/2023 16:25

I feel a bit shaken and want to know if I have just made a massive deal out of nothing or if I was justified.
I was talking to a male friend who I have not seen for ages and who I used to go out with for a bit a long while ago. We get on really well and he is generally a really sound guy.
We were talking about men coming onto women and he made a joke about how women dress and I said that sounded predatory. He said that was the joke and he was being sarcastic but he got that I didn't want to hear it and he wouldn't say anything like that again but in the next breath made another flippant comment about rape. Not saying he agreed with it or anything, just a flippant comment which I didn't like.

I said no women find rape jokes funny and that men shouldn't either.
He backed off but then said actually some women DO find it funny and that I should not appoint myself spokeswoman for my gender.

This made me really angry. I thought about it for about an hour and then messaged him to say any man that makes rape jokes or is so casual about it has real issues and that NO women do find rape jokes funny and I was not trying to be any kind of spokeswoman.

I ended by saying to him "Don't contact me again". I have not heard from him since - but it has only been about 45 minutes...

DO any women really find rape jokes funny? I cannot honestly believe that any woman would. Would you have reacted in the same way? Was I being unreasonable?

OP posts:
NowDoYouBelieveMe · 02/02/2023 23:08

Depends who the joke is 'on'.

If the joke is laughing at rapists, or how terrible the criminal justice system is at prosecuting it, or highlighting how our society is steeped in rape culture, I might find it funny (not all jokes are funny).

If the joke is laughing at victims or making out rape is not serious or awful or something, then no, I wouldn't find it funny and I would judge the person telling it negatively.

JarByTheDoor · 02/02/2023 23:18

JudgeRudy · 02/02/2023 21:46

@JarByTheDoor "But that message carries a subtext: he is better than those men because he chooses not to rape and to make poor excuses for it. The joke is a subtle, probably unintentional reminder that the reason he has not raped you is that he has chosen not to, and he probably could if he wanted to (and that the most pathetic of excuses would protect him from consequences). I doubt he meant to send that message but it's kind of implicit in the fabric of the joke.".........but this is just you're interpretation not an accepted psychological analysis.
I seriously doubt that was going through his head at all. I imagine he was most likely thinking "What? You seriously think l could be predatory? Yeah that's right I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing and get my rape cloak on when I fancy sexual assaulting some poor woman (sarcastically)."

I'm not talking about what was going through his head, or any psychological analyses. (I notice you did, though. Not even sure where you're getting this psychology thing from.

I'm talking about the layers of meanings of what people are saying when they talk to each other, what's explicit and implicit and how human communication has a lot of tricky ways of getting different types of things across to other people.

Still assuming the friend was mocking misogynist rapists:

We can understand the joke in that we get why a nasty misogynist would find "maybe-equals-yes" type jokes funny. We can then also understand it on the level where we laugh at the irony of a decent bloke pretending to sound like a misogynist in order to mock them.

We can also understand it on the level of what a person is communicating about themselves via what they choose to say. When you mock or criticise someone in some way for something, you generally implicitly position yourself in relation to the person you're mocking or criticising — different, or opposing, or better, generally something like that. We automatically listen for this kind of social and relational communication lying beneath what people say.

The ways that we use what we say to communicate with each other on multiple levels means that when it's coming from a man towards a woman, the friend's rape joke — even if intended as anti-rapist — can easily result in discomfort if the woman feels she's being implicitly invited to consider what makes this man different to rapists.

Or of course the conversation might not develop that way, different people might prioritise different aspects of what's being communicated, or they might understand it in different ways…

What I'm saying is that arguing, "But the joke was against rapists and mocking misogynists so it's fine" doesn't work well as a blanket statement, especially when the circumstance is a man joking about rape to a woman shortly after she discloses a recent uncomfortable situation with a man. There are lots of ways ways that making even an anti-rape rape joke can result in communication that hurts someone or gives an unintended negative impression, resulting in upset people and damaged relationships; I was just talking about one way that could happen, as an example.

MrsMikeDrop · 03/02/2023 01:07

CementTrucker · 02/02/2023 22:44

Yep, thank goodness someone’s standing up for the rights of some women to enjoy rape jokes. And how dare you presume to speak for other women,op! When you think about it, maybe he’s the feminist here. All very reminiscent of those men who passionately speak up for women who love being prostitutes in the face of the threat from spoilsport fascist feminists. Some men seem to get very exercised when certain, very specific female ‘freedoms’ are questioned.

While I agree with pps saying that unfortunately getting bogged down in the do-or-don’t-ALL-women-hate-rape-jokes debate has allowed this tosser to dodge the real point, this particular (pedantic, sanctimonious) sentiment is actually as offensive as the original joke in its way.

Please stick to your guns and lose this guy from your life.

Apologies, but this did make me laugh at the ridiculousness of the situation ... "thank goodness someone's standing up for the rights of some women to enjoy rape jokes" Even if it was a misunderstanding, the guy is a bit of a dick for not letting it go, think you're better off rid of him. No great loss to you OP.

WineIsMyMainVice · 03/02/2023 01:16

YADNBU!!
Well done for calling it out!!

Carlycat · 03/02/2023 01:32

Ofcourseshecan · 02/02/2023 16:42

Trigger warning.
One of my sexual-assault experiences included being knocked down, punched and kicked, then grabbed by the neck and my head rammed against a wall several times, then the attacker knelt on my back, grabbed my hair and jerked my head backwards several times presumably trying to break my back.
I survived (with injuries) because he panicked and ran off.
I know, hilarious. But like the OP, I just don’t seem to get rape jokes.

I'd torch the fucker. Huge hugs to you Flowers.

Carlycat · 03/02/2023 01:35

He's a woman hating twat. I'd bin the fucker and tell him why. Women need to up their fucking expectations from men

boinsh · 03/02/2023 02:03

Carlycat · 03/02/2023 01:35

He's a woman hating twat. I'd bin the fucker and tell him why. Women need to up their fucking expectations from men

How do you know he deserves to die. I love comedians like jimmy carr who are offensive and funny but he doesn't hate women. How much hate must you have in your life to suggest a man you don't know needs to die because of a comment. Women can speak for themselves, we don't need people to represent one view , or think we cry over one comment. Women are better than that now, we aren't destroyed by one man who needs to die, we can ignore them and have our own opinion

Isheabastard · 03/02/2023 09:46

Thank you @CaffeineFreeEverything

But rereading my comment, “ we should have more stroppy opinionated women - not less” I just want to clarify.

I don’t actually think OP was being stroppy or opinionated in the usual use of the word.

We should all be able to have opinions, I suppose I meant that her friend probably thought she was stroppy and opinionated, so in a way if sticking up for your own boundaries is seen as stroppy, so fucking be it.

I like many others, see this being more about boundaries than an actual rape joke.

we are in a process where the acceptance on limits on this subject are moving, and like with most things, the other posters are showing us that that line is often in an entirely different for other posters.

@dalecooper your post has introduced a very complex and subtle topic for discussion. I think at this time, you only need some posters to agree with you, not all.

We are not all yet (to borrow an entirely over used phrase) on the right side of history. But I’m pretty sure one day rape jokes will be considered by the vast majority of people to be off limits.

Puppers · 03/02/2023 10:01

He sounds awful and it's good that you are not going to be in contact with him anymore.

I mean he's technically right in that there will be some women who for whatever reason will laugh at rape jokes and you don't know the inner workings of every female mind to speak for all women BUT it speaks absolutely volumes about his character that when you challenge him on his blatant misogyny, his reaction is to pull you up on a technicality and double down on a position that he knows is offensive to you and harmful to women in general, rather than apologising and shutting up. And if his argument is that it's fine to tell jokes like these because some women are not offended (or don't make it known that they are offended), then he needs to do a bit of critical thinking. In any group of women, it's almost a certainty that vastly more of them will have experienced rape or sexual assault or will be offended by a rape joke than will find it genuinely funny. Is it so important to him to get a laugh out of that tiny, tiny unidentified portion of the female population? So important that he'll risk telling rape jokes to rape victims? Or, like other misogynistic men, is he actually getting his kicks out of hurting women under that thin veneer of "I'm just telling harmless jokes"?

He sounds utterly devoid of emotional intelligence, full of self-importance and not as clever as he thinks he is. Not the kind of person I'd be interested in maintaining a friendship with.

Naunet · 03/02/2023 10:32

Ricky Gervais and his “HER penis” jokes made me laugh, because he’s not making a joke at the victims expense, most men however are not as talented in the comedy department as people like Gervais, despite how much they rate themselves.
Men making jokes at the victims expense disgust me, there’s nothing funny about it.

Naunet · 03/02/2023 10:35

boinsh · 03/02/2023 02:03

How do you know he deserves to die. I love comedians like jimmy carr who are offensive and funny but he doesn't hate women. How much hate must you have in your life to suggest a man you don't know needs to die because of a comment. Women can speak for themselves, we don't need people to represent one view , or think we cry over one comment. Women are better than that now, we aren't destroyed by one man who needs to die, we can ignore them and have our own opinion

What the fuck?! A. Where does she say he needs to die? B. Even if she did, it’s just a joke, right? Why is it ok for men to make jokes about raping women (not hate) but a woman making a joke about a man needing to die is not ok and is hate?! Double standards?

Climbles · 03/02/2023 10:41

I think anything can be funny in the right context. The context for me would have to be someone I knew very very well (and therefore knew they weren’t predatory) or a woman. I can, for example imagine someone like Kathrine Ryan being able to pull off a joke about such a difficult subject.
In the context you have described it wasn’t funny and you made clear you weren’t happy about it. He’s a D Bag.

billy1966 · 03/02/2023 10:41

He's scum.

I find it very hard to imagine anyone finding humour in having actually been the victim of a date rape.

Go with your gut, have no further contact.

I love a joke but sexual violence doesn't make me laugh.

Conkersinautumn · 03/02/2023 10:47

Women laugh in order to humour the man. Pretend we are not threatened, keep working out how to get away from that person. People laugh at disgusting jokes out of nervousness. Predators make use of that

SamanthaCaine · 03/02/2023 10:50

DinnerThyme · 02/02/2023 16:59

I'm a victim of rape. I was raped repeatedly by an adult family member when I was between the ages of 12 and 14. There are some jokes I find funny on the topic - humour and laughing is largely determined by surprise. Social taboos are a key component in most comedy. As with most jokes, timing and appropriate context is vital. Humour is also a coping mechanism for many abuse survivors. Please stop speaking for others - it's not your place.

I'm extremely sorry for your experience but chapeau for your attitude towards humour.

Humour can be hugely cathartic and is credit to those who have suffered that they can look at it from different angles. I appreciate that not everyone can but as someone who was violently beaten as a child, I'm with you Flowers

Thatshipsailed · 03/02/2023 10:54

What was the gist of the ‘joke’. You say it was a flippant comment, I’d need to know what it was before knowing if I was offended

LexMitior · 03/02/2023 10:54

It's revealing that OP had some boundaries and then there is a serious effort by some here to unpick that.

Assuming the unpickers are women, then there something very damaged about that. Crowdsourcing your boundaries is a bad idea.

Guy keeping going with the rape jokes. Moron, absolutely. A decent human being doesn't do this one on one. Get seriously judging people who do, including women. Bunch of nasty little headworkers.

SillyGoat · 03/02/2023 10:58

Every joke is determined on a case by case basis.

I've had a close family member die from suicide from psychosis. I may have laughed at jokes relating to suicide after the fact, can't remember. Does that mean I hate my close family member or don't care about victims?

No.

Jokes about lots of things can be funny. It depends on how they are delivered and the intent behind it. I would never laugh at a joke told by someone who thought suicide was actually funny, same with rape.

That's the difference for me at least. If it's funny. If the person is a decent person or just a horrid person with no empathy who thinks "people die/woman raped = funny"

I don't think ive heard a rape joke before, not in recent memory anyway. Generally, I'd imagine crude and awkward, not funny. So not commenting on that specifically, more the idea that you're a heartless traitor if you laugh at something others say your not allowed to.

I'm rambling now but I'm making a general point about offensive jokes.

HRTQueen · 03/02/2023 10:58

YANBU to feel offended and upset

I am a women I find some rape jokes funny

that I have myself been raped and sexually assaulted a number of times this for myself is irrelevant I do not feel I am being laughed at (with the jokes, amusing comments I have heard) but this is how I feel I can’t claim to know how others will feel

dalecooper · 03/02/2023 11:00

Thatshipsailed I have detailed what was said if you read through the thread. Think it is on the second page.

I have not responded to him and don't plan on doing so. If he can't see how it can be a sensitive subject and can't see that how a simple 'sorry' might have been the wisest response after me saying it makes me nervous, then I don't feel inclined to talk to him again.

I think he and I are on very different pages.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 03/02/2023 11:03

op I think he's testing your boundaries and if you get in touch you are basically telling him you will ignore your instincts as you value his friendship more. Therefore you are vulnerable to him manipulating you, for whatever reason he wants.

When someone tells you who they are, listen. Don't get back in touch.

ICantFoolMyself · 03/02/2023 14:43

dalecooper · 03/02/2023 11:00

Thatshipsailed I have detailed what was said if you read through the thread. Think it is on the second page.

I have not responded to him and don't plan on doing so. If he can't see how it can be a sensitive subject and can't see that how a simple 'sorry' might have been the wisest response after me saying it makes me nervous, then I don't feel inclined to talk to him again.

I think he and I are on very different pages.

Any decent man would have messaged you to say that he was sorry that he'd upset you and that he will ensure he doesn't speak like that again!

dalecooper · 03/02/2023 15:12

Yes I think you are right. I am rather taken aback that he has put himself in a position of being 'in the right'. He does have a massive ego and clearly apologies or self-reflection are not his strong suit.

It makes me feel a bit nauseated that he said that in the first place but even more so that he feels he should stick to his guns and not properly apologise to a friend.

OP posts:
LookingOldTheseDays · 03/02/2023 15:20

AdamRyan · 03/02/2023 11:03

op I think he's testing your boundaries and if you get in touch you are basically telling him you will ignore your instincts as you value his friendship more. Therefore you are vulnerable to him manipulating you, for whatever reason he wants.

When someone tells you who they are, listen. Don't get back in touch.

I agree with this.

A man telling a woman that her boundaries are wrong when it comes to rape jokes is way out of line. Your boundaries are what they are - you don't need to explain, justify or apologise for them!

picklemewalnuts · 03/02/2023 17:00

I wouldn't trust him, in future. That's my take away from creeps like him. Don't trust them, they want their own way.

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