Rape jokes - AIBU?

[dalecooper]

I feel a bit shaken and want to know if I have just made a massive deal out of nothing or if I was justified.
I was talking to a male friend who I have not seen for ages and who I used to go out with for a bit a long while ago. We get on really well and he is generally a really sound guy.
We were talking about men coming onto women and he made a joke about how women dress and I said that sounded predatory. He said that was the joke and he was being sarcastic but he got that I didn't want to hear it and he wouldn't say anything like that again but in the next breath made another flippant comment about rape. Not saying he agreed with it or anything, just a flippant comment which I didn't like.

I said no women find rape jokes funny and that men shouldn't either.
He backed off but then said actually some women DO find it funny and that I should not appoint myself spokeswoman for my gender.

This made me really angry. I thought about it for about an hour and then messaged him to say any man that makes rape jokes or is so casual about it has real issues and that NO women do find rape jokes funny and I was not trying to be any kind of spokeswoman.

I ended by saying to him "Don't contact me again". I have not heard from him since - but it has only been about 45 minutes...

DO any women really find rape jokes funny? I cannot honestly believe that any woman would. Would you have reacted in the same way? Was I being unreasonable?

About 20 years ago I remember a friends husband saying at a dinner party “How can you tell when your wife has an orgasm?” Answer “who cares?”. None of the women laughed, and there was only a bit of eye rolling. I’d like to think if someone tried that now, everyone at the table would let him know what a rubbish thing that was to say.

Really can't imagine calling anybody out for this even if you don't find it funny

I kind of do think you're unreasonable to end a long term friendship over it, but ho... you don't actually say what the flippant comment was? And I do agree that you can't speak for all women. I'm struggling to see the joke though

Most jokes can be seen as juvenile or offensive if looked at simply as a statement. Even simple physical humour is not funny when looked at rationally. I think most of these are funny because we want them to be funny.

He said 'depends what she was wearing' and something about girls not meaning what they say and everyone knows that two no's and a maybe really mean yes.

I wouldn't find this funny whether he said it sarcastically or not. I too would have had to have challenged him on it.

I think you've allowed him to take your challenge to him off topic with the spokeswoman thing which is a shame. Others are right, you don't speak for all women becausesome will have internalised misogyny and others will use humour to cope with trauma, but that's not the point - the point is that he made a bad taste joke that in your (and my) opinion is actively unhelpful in the battle against rape culture.

I can't think of any of my male friends who would make this joke. I can think of some acquaintances who would, but the point is there not people I chose to be friends with.

He seems to have doubled down on it a few times, including after you called him out on it. For me that's a clear red line. Decent men if they realised their female friend had taken offence to something they said or taken it to mean a rape joke when they didn't mean it that way, would apologise immediately. They wouldn't reverse victim and offender (DARVO) to try to make you out to be the bad guy. I wouldn't bother keeping in touch with him.

Absolutely. I'm also a CSA survivor, and occasionally have laughed at a rape joke. Told by the right person in the right situation it can be funny to me.

The same joke by a different man could have me raging.

YANBU - good on you for standing up to him

OP he's a manipulative dick, there's a saying about how narcissists think when they say something horrendous
"There was nothing wrong with what I said until you reacted to it"
Basically it's your fault and you spoilt the fun
They then belittle you to make you doubt yourself and your reaction.
As others have said a decent person would be mortified they offended a friend.

Your former friend sounds like a real piece and you are well rid of him. He showed you who he was and he is trying to put the shame on you, which is the sort of thing that abusers do when they've been caught.

The last two male friends, in my experience who joked about this sort of thing and accused me of not having a sense of humour, both turned out to be misogynists. One of them was fired for grooming.

He's vile. Block him and move on.

He's right though, sadly some women do find jokes even about rape funny, why - trying to be 'cool' but adults know it's not cool or right, completely thick maybe, doing whatever the man wants them to do or say or think, it's strange isn't it.

Rape is NEVER funny in any way shape or form.
The thought of ANY female member of my family - come to that girls/women who I know, have worked with, worked for, are friends or just acquaintances being subjected to the ultimate sexual assault provokes in me an almost visceral reaction. Rape deserves the most draconian of punishments - reflecting the effect upon the victim which will be lifelong.
I might come over as a bit hang ‘em & flog ‘em - but in 99% of crimes against the person - my sympathies are entirely with the victim - and let’s face it the punishment fits the crime, if a rapist is in jail they can’t rape anyone. A win win situation.

That doesn't really automatically make it okay. OP told the friend about a very recent situation where she was vulnerable and receiving unwanted male attention. Friend made a joke, and let's say it was targeting and mocking men who make bad excuses for rape. This is a man, talking to a woman who may have recently felt threatened by another man, using humour to convey to a woman, "I am not like the men who choose to rape and to make poor excuses for it; I look down on them". But that message carries a subtext: he is better than those men because he chooses not to rape and to make poor excuses for it. The joke is a subtle, probably unintentional reminder that the reason he has not raped you is that he has chosen not to, and he probably could if he wanted to (and that the most pathetic of excuses would protect him from consequences). I doubt he meant to send that message but it's kind of implicit in the fabric of the joke.

He sounds like an Andrew Tate fan tbh

I find them funny when I or my best friend make them. We're both survivors.

But that's irrelevant really, or why we do it or whatever.

You expressed your displeasure about the joke, you set a boundary (and a pretty easy to avoid boundary at that) . It would've been stupidly easy to stop and apologise. He didn't. He made another one. Then another. Then insulted you, minimised your feelings and tried to gaslight you that it's all in your head. That's a shitload of red flags in one conversation. Even after he had tome to think and reconsider, he's still sticking to his line and you're still the one in the wrong. Cut your loses.

YADNBU X

With the right delivery I can find jokes about death, racism, sexism, rape, abortion funny. The shock / taboo factor is one way humour works.

Can't laugh at jokes about kids dying tho. Can barely write it. I'm sure lots of other people of both sexes can laugh about that- and good for them. Doesn't mean they don't care about kids.

Your friend sounds like a creep, and those jokes were not funny at all, he totally failed to read his audience so overall think you did the right thing.

Should I go back to him and explain why I was upset personally? Or should I totally leave it? I am not sure if it is worth explaining why I found it offensive and why I felt he should apologise. Is that just a waste of time?

I also just want to clarify that at the time I did honestly think that women would not find 'rape humour' funny at all. Seems I was wrong about that. I take it on board. I do think that a rape survivor making a joke about it is different to a man making a joke about it though.

Rape joke are like racial jokes

If your going to tell them they better be good

I wouldn't bother because you won't get through. It will be more of "you're too sensitive,it's just a joke,that's not what i meant,you took it the wrong way,you're overthinking this ". Bla bla bloody bla.

He won't change ir the way he thinks, he'll just be more mindful about what he actually says next time.

Anything can be joked about, some of us will find it funny, some won't. Ricky Gervais jokes about disabilities, I have a disabled kid, I still think he's funny.

My boxing instructor made a rape Joke in October and I left him and joined a bigger better boxing club ! Not accepting tht at all. Spoke to my therapist about it and she was repulsed too!

I don't find them funny but I amsick of people trying to dictate around others and their thoughts

I'm a woman. I've found a rape joke funny before (play on words). I've also found jokes about murder, incest, racism, homophobia, disabled, etc etc funny. I love Ricky Gervais, Frankley Boyle and Jimmy Carr. Their jokes can be very un PC. I don't find the old school Bernard Manning or Jim Davison funny at all.
I hope it goes without saying I don't find rape itself funny. I'd be mindful of my audience too sharing these type of jokes.
Could it be initially he was being sarcastic when he implied women asked for it or mocking misogynist excuses.
Without hearing the second remark I'd find it hard to judge if you're reasonable to end a friendship over this. Words are important, but I judge more by actions.

I agree @JudgeRudy i don’t need other women to speak on my behalf about what I should and shouldn’t find funny

Or they just find a particular joke funny.

Spokeswoman for your "gender"?
You mean SEX.