To think the uk is on its knees

[Ilovemycatalot]

Just this. Every day negativity. No one is happy with life or working conditions. The country is at an all time low. Living standards getting worse by the day people getting poorer. I know we are not in poverty like some countries but honestly can’t see us ever returning to decent living standards unless you’re the few top percent earners. Tell me I’m being dramatic perhaps I am but can’t see much of a way back from this .

Why don't we just sterilise poor people and be done with it

That was sent before I meant to. People's circumstances change. You might have a great job one minute, be made redundant the next. Or lose a partner.

There are not too many people on the planet, it's a fallacy that's keeps being repeated ad nauseam. There is a disgustingly horrible distribution of wealth and resources of the planet. If those resources were more fairly distributed, the West would have much less immigration and there'd be fewer wars.

As it is, and with the birth rates of most industrialised nations, we either get migrants from the most populated areas of the world to work and pay taxes or our systems will collapse.

It's simply not sustainable to have a 0 or minus birth rate in the UK, Germany, Spain etc etc etc, if we want to continue with the level of services and wealth, we've taken for granted for decades.

If those resources were more fairly distributed, the West would have much less immigration and there'd be fewer wars.

How should the resources be more fairly distributed?

There are not too many people on the planet, it's a fallacy that's keeps being repeated ad nauseam.
Why is it a fallacy, in the case of environmental issues? If there were fewer people, there'd be less pollution, wouldn't there?

No. It's not that simple. Industrialised nations generate the majority of the rubbish that pollutes our world while shoring up their wealth. Their multinationals have controlled world prices in energy, agriculture, water, transport forever - all the essentials necessary to control resources in the planet. The environmental disaster we are facing is not caused by the majority of countries in Africa, Latin America, the Pacific islands or small countries in Asia like the Philippines or Vietnam.

Let's not blame a farmer in the Ivory Coast for polluting our world while working the land with their hands, when for almost 2 centuries, we've engaged in a consumer free for all, full of factories poisoning the air we breathe, creating wars over oil resources, over fishing oceans, massive agriculture and meat full of hormones, and enough plastic to makes us drown in it.

Our industrialised nations have controlled and polluted this world without a care about the planet. The awful part is that now we need the immigrants from the nations we've shat on, to work and pay taxes because we live so well that we no longer want to have too many children because they are expensive and prefer to pay a huge mortgage to have a lovely house to live.

And even more awful is that those migrants we need to keep paying taxes to keep our nations in control of world resources, are being demonised for being migrants.

Spot on @Alondra. 👏🏻

By limiting the access of multinationals to poor nations' natural resources, making those countries safe to sell their assets at a fair price. Which is utopia because multinationals control everything, including our governments. They are only interested in profits, they don't give a shit about anything or anyone else.

The environmental disaster we are facing is not caused by the majority of countries in Africa, Latin America, the Pacific islands or small countries in Asia like the Philippines or Vietnam.
No, of course it isn't. We need fewer frequent flyers etc. to help the environment. That kind of population reduction would be helpful, though?
And yes, the trouble is that our system relies on the younger generation supporting the older one. So when there's a much smaller younger generation, we currently ship people in from elsewhere. That's not a fair solution. It's not a solution at all, really. More like using a teacup to frantically scoop water out of a sinking boat, instead of repairing the holes in the boat.

How will the environmental challenge be helped if we keep growing to maintain living standards

As you say it’s the western developed world more likely to pollute

Frequent flyers, like China, have less damaged the environment than 200 years of industrial revolution polluting and poisoning our world without constraint. The environmental disaster we are facing today didn't happen in the last 30 years because of huge demands of air travel or China. It's been happening for a long time, and mostly done in the last 150 years. Scientists have been saying the same for a long time, it's only lately, in the last 10 years, that governments and press have given them a voice.

Unlike you, I think migration is a great solution. Most migrants work hard and are incredibly resourceful, create wealth and jobs and a more diverse and interesting society.

By limiting the access of multinationals to poor nations' natural resources, making those countries safe to sell their assets at a fair price. Which is utopia because multinationals control everything, including our governments. They are only interested in profits, they don't give a shit about anything or anyone else.

I’m sure that’s true, but also the populations of wealthy countries have become accustomed to travel the world and buying all sorts of goods made in China (I am not blaming the Chinese, they make the stuff as there’s demand for it) and I can’t see any government introducing bans on air travel or mass produced goods.
I don’t know what a working solution would be- does anyone?

Unlike you, I think migration is a great solution. Most migrants work hard and are incredibly resourceful, create wealth and jobs and a more diverse and interesting society.
I am a migrant, and I think migration is great for the reasons you mention. I just don't think it's a solution to our current woes.

Agree with you. This is all likely true but if our aim is to maintain standard of living this way, by growing our numbers, then you need to look at downside of increased climate damage as that’s what our lifestyle does.

By "frequent flyers etc." I meant everything that comes with that kind of lifestyle.
When considering flying and the environment, looking backwards at what effect it has had so far is less worrying than when you look forwards at what effect it will have in the future, partly because as yet we have no useable alternative to the fuel used. (E-fuels need a lot of work, still.)

What's your solution then to keep services in the UK like the NHS, pharmacies, agricultural, fishing, factories, pensions..... if the population has a net growth of 0?

if our aim is to maintain standard of living this way, by growing our numbers
Do you know what alternatives there are? Or how else we could change things without a dramatic drop in standard of living? Serious question.

What's your solution then
Fortunately it's not up to me to find the solution. But I would guess that smarter people than me might have thought about it. I'm curious as to what other suggestions there are. (My guess is, though, that if there are any good ideas, they won't be implemented, and the population reduction will come about "naturally" as a result.)

There’s a good poster on here who updates positive changes that will improve living standards and climate impact - there’s a thread in Climate I think and they have much better insight than me (Daftabroom iirc)

But imo we’ll see forced change, as we did through pandemic, we’ll use automation, adapt and invent so we can maintain standards with fewer people.

It’ll be messy, hard and nature is giving us a good go at what is coming but I think we will rebalance

But one element that will change is this idea we can just keep growing to solve problems, especially if it means moving people from low impact areas to high Western impact areas, or everyone just living with western living standards - the latter may happen anyway but if we all pollute at our rate and our numbers I think we’re in for a bigger shock

I will have a read on the climate forum, thanks @MarshaBradyo !

You were saying migration is not an answer, when the reality if that the UK birth rates have been declining steadily.

In 2020 there were 1.56 births per woman.

In 2021 there was a decline of 0.49. And in 2022 a further decline by 0.48.

Saying "I'm a migrant and I don't think migration is a solution" and "it's not up to me to find a solution" is a cop out.

You are a migrant and were given the chance to contribute and pay taxes in the UK. I find it unbelievably hypocritical that you think people in the same position you were once, should not be given the same chance.

I find it unbelievably hypocritical that you think people in the same position you were once, should not be given the same chance.
I think people should be able to migrate, the same as me. I think they should be able to migrate because they want to live in another country, pay taxes there, etc. I don't think that any country should rely on an input of young people who have been brought up at the expense of another, often poorer country - often with the assumption that those people will bugger off after a few years. It's not a sustainable solution. Growth can't continue indefinitely.

I don't think that any country should rely on an input of young people who have been brought up at the expense of another, often poorer country - often with the assumption that those people will bugger off after a few years. It's not a sustainable solution. Growth can't continue indefinitely.

Again, as a migrant, didn't you come to the UK from a poorer country? Didn't you migrate because you thought you and your family will have a better living standard in the UK?

Why on earth would you'think as a migrant that "those people will bugger off after a few years". Most migrants settle in their new country, raise their kids and become part of the fabric of society.

Frankly, I find the "those people will bugger off after a few years" very offensive. Are you really a migrant?

I live in Germany. I came before I had children, and married a German, so no, I did not come here for a better life for my children. I'm not saying that people should bugger off after a few years. I'm referring to the fact that the UK or German governments brought young migrants over in the 1950s and 60s expecting them to leave again after a few years, and that local populations often seem very pissed off about migrants coming to other countries to work and then settling in that country and having children.
Anyone who reads this final explanation and still thinks I'm a racist, pleae note that I'm not coming back to clear up any further "misunderstandings".

Blatantly ignore my question about circumstances changing and jump on the pregnancy aspect. I can see you’re just here to cause issues. Lack of empathy is what is wrong with this country.