To think DS's school is a bit much - or are all grammars like this?

[Annoynymouse85]

He's in year 8 at a grammar. I had no experience of grammars and was torn between sending him to a non-selective, where he'd probably be top of the class (but the options for boys around here aren't great) or a grammar where...well, I had no idea how he might do at a grammar TBH but he took two 11+ exams (we straddle two areas) and scored well above the pass marks so I assumed he was more than capable. In the end, I let him choose the school he liked best.

There are so many tests - in some subjects, they're set a new test immediately after putting their pen down for the last one. He always has something to revise for. I understand they need to get used to being tested but it seems relentless. Is this the norm for grammars/secondaries in general?

He was doing ok in year 7 but not so great this year - often scoring in the 50s-60% which is really knocking his confidence. He told me tonight that at primary he felt like he was good at subjects but now he feels like he's not doing well at anything. What makes it worse is that the school is so strict - it seems to take the default position that all students are potentially badly behaved so they need to treat them harshly all the time. Endless 'bad behaviour marks' for trivial things such as forgetting a book, rather than what I'd call actual willful bad behaviour. He actually has loads of good behaviour marks but I feel their approach makes well behaved kids feel like they're viewed as having the potential to be bad, iyswim.

He also seems to dislike quite a few teachers, which is just not like him, he's so easy going - I had to complain about one teacher (I have NEVER complained about a teacher!) and was told that several other parents had complained too and that 'things would change soon' (she was sacked, which I was grateful for). Also, they are so obsessed with attendance - they actively keep clearly ill children in school rather than let them go home.

He was such an easy student at primary, who never complained but here, I just don't get a sense that the school is nurturing. Since starting at the school, he's been suffering physical symptoms of anxiety.

I told him the other day that if he wanted to look at moving schools, we could do that - and he didn't baulk at the idea, which surprised me. He said it's not something he definitely wants to do, and he would hate to leave his friends but he wouldn't rule it out. We've agreed we'll see how it goes and talk to teachers at the upcoming parents' evening.

I'm so upset about this. I was so worried about making the wrong school choice for him, particularly as due to Covid, we had to choose a secondary based on videos on schools' websites rather than physical visits.

Is grammar just not for him? I just can't help thinking that if the environment was a little more nurturing and some of the teachers a little nicer, he might be having a more positive experience - or am I being naive, are all grammars like this?

Yes, it did cross my mind that being with headcases could be worse!!!

I think this is quite a common experience for children who are tutored through the 11+. Grammar schools are very academic. The entrance tests are supposed to test to see if children are working at an advanced enough level to be able to cope with the intensity of grammar school. But, at the end of the day, he did well enough to get in, so he is capable with a bit of extra hard work. It will take time to adjust to this whole new environment and way of learning. He's only young. He needs to keep going and not miss school because the pace is fast and it's easy to fall behind. You can get him tutors for the important exams (GCSEs, A levels).

I will say though, if you suspect her has any kind of learning difficulty/ND get that sorted ASAP because secondary education in general will trigger issues. Unsupported children in grammar schools will suffer terribly.

They pick the top whatever percent in their area and that's really why they do well. Some of those kids will have tuition right the way through school which works out great for the school as they get the results but the kids are getting teaching from elsewhere.

I went to a grammar without tuition and struggled. There were no questions asked, no help offered no encouragement or anything. I had a subject where I wa not doing well and the school told me that I would not be entered for the GCSE as I might not even get a C. They didn't want their stats dragged down.

The head of DD's grammar tried his hand at working with a comp in the borough and it did not go well. She is surrounded by girls who do a lot of work and are used to doing a lot.

I felt the same when my daughter went to secondary and she goes to a regular non selective school. It just seemed to be test after test and at no point we're they taught how to revise for tests. Eventually they did teach them some study skills that helped a bit. She prefers to revise with YouTube videos and online quizzes and there are plenty available that follow the national curriculum (she used this for her GCSEs and now for her A levels)
my son is now in year 8 and thinks he doesn't need to revise because how would they know so definitely doesn't take after his sister.

Sorry that your son is having a tough time at the moment. In my experience however, this is what grammar and private selective schools are like in the main (I'm sure that there are exceptions however!) These kind of school are very results driven and expect the kids to keep up or ship out. My son is in year 11 at the moment and whilst he's enjoyed his time at his grammar school the environment and style of teaching certainly wouldn't have been right for his brother so I do think it's really horses for courses, depending on what your child likes and how he deals with the academic pressure. There are lots and lots of tests. My son's school ranks the kids and then tells them all where they are in the class - it's great if you are no. 3 of 30 and feel motivated to push to become no.2 but if you are no.29 of 30 I would imagine that you would feel pretty demoralised. At the end of the day you just want your kids to be happy so if you don't feel that he's dealing with the grammar-style of teaching then I would definitely look at the other options.

@euff I wonder if you’re in the same area as me? There’s a very high performing girls’ grammar here with a male head who tried helping out a badly performing comp…

@Annoynymouse85 if his initials are DD then yes.

I worried about making the right choice for DD. There is another mixed grammar in the borough that has an all round good reputation. DD was very much on the fence between the schools and like you we could only go by the videos etc. There does seem to be a lot more drama and bullying in the girls secondary that her primary friends went to so I'm glad that isn't there for her.

5 hours per week! Wow, so much.

During my last 2 years of highschool, studying for the equivalent of gcse , I used to wake up at 6am to study before school, then study some more after. Plus the weekends.

it was though but now my salary is in the top 5% for uk, so not too bad I’d say.

i could earn more, but at this stage in my life I want minimum effort with max salary. I know my job very well so doesn’t take many hours or effort to do it. If I’d be willing to work harder, get some new qualifications etc I’d be earning more.

I didn’t have that attitude growing up bc in a poor country there are no guarantees you’ll be able to cruise, and the benefits are offered for 3 months only (or smtg like that). And I’m glad I didn’t.

it was the thoughest period of my life, never mind puberty, crushes, boys, but I knew that these years were crucial for my future, there was no safety blanket and I didn’t want to struggle and be poor for my whole life.

Personally I earn a good salary without working all the hours or feeling massively pressurised.

When I was at secondary school things were slightly too laid back but now things have gone much too far the other way. We need to start from scratch and redesign the education system, it fails far too many children.

My DC never really saw the language tests as real tests. They are meant to be revision aiders, so the equivalent of a weekly primary spelling test. Every week you learn the vocab, write it in a booklet, left in foregn language/right in English revise it and get tested. Then half termly you revise all the vocab. Sounds like he needs some revision help with the language tests? You need to build up a good vocab bank in modern languages and or Latin etc. and especially French, you need to remember the accents and grammar and conjugations and keeping good revision booklets is important.
My DC also never panicked about end of topic tests either - just read through their exercise books. The tests they were more freaked out by where the ones they do to set for GCSE or the next year. Unless you keep good books/revision notes for the whole year, those are hard.
I think a lot of the constant testing is to make them realise to keep good notes and exercise books so they have somewhere where they can easily access all the material. So the testing itself is meant to make them learn how they revise best.

I went to a grammar a bit like this. Not all selective schools are this old fashioned, stressful and uncaring.

It is hard, the transition from it all being easy to having to work a bit more for it, some posters are mentioning this. Also ignore any competitive parents.

Fundamentally, your child is unhappy and literally no academic achievement is worth this much stress when you are 12/13. Move your child, unless you feel you can resolve this with the school, but don’t rule out all selective schools.

That level of testing you’re describing OP is normal for my two kids (year 7 and 11). They are both at a standard state secondary school. I don’t think it’ll be different anywhere else!

Op needs to separate the testing from the pastoral issues.
Not being nurturing but ruling through fear is not ok.
Testing to aid regular revision and teach good habits is ok and perfectly standard. If the child is happy in the first place and has some basic revision skills, they will get used to the tests and not worry about them.
I would get in touch with his pastoral support/tutor to discuss the matter. I certainly wouldn’t just move my child.

@Annoynymouse85 that is awful that they are not benchmarking and explaining grades at all. DD has termly reports that grades on colours and each subject creates it on a bell curve. For example in English they did a GCSEs level exam and the meeting expectations band was 50% because that is what most got. In another subject meeting expectations was 90%. The girls always get a mark and an idea of the bands so they know what it means.

What kind of tests do you mean? If it’s for eg a vocab or grammar test (languages) or quick test to make sure they’ve grasped a topic before moving on then I’d say it’s pretty normal (at least when I was at grammar school). All results were internal though and was a good way to learn throughout the year rather than revising everything from scratch at the end

I went to a grammar school in the 90s. Looking back (I'm a teacher now so have perspective) the quality of teaching was appalling. The only way we passed exams was by everyone having massively high expectations of us all the time. Failure just wasn't an option. Behaviour management was suspect - I remember being terrified of one teacher who used to threaten to hit us with various objects and would pull the boys' sideburns. One music teacher completely humiliated me in front of my class, causing me to try to bunk off on the day she taught us until I could drop the subject. I'm sure things have changed but I would not be mad keen to send my own daughter there if we lived in the area.

If there's one thing I'm learning about secondary schools its that you have to be in there to get them the help they need. DS is on the SEN register and I was told all these things about assessments and support and all the rest. Deafening silence. I sent a few friendly emails. Tumbleweed. It was only when I started to get a bit shirty and insisted on a meeting that anything changed.

In the school's defense, since then the've (mostly) been great. But you do have to push and push and you can't assume that the school will be proactively keeping an eye out and monitoring stuff because they just won't.

Sounds exactly the the same as the state comp my kids go to. It has very high standards as well. I’m not sure it’s just a grammar thing. Depends on the school.

I think there sounds to be an ethos of getting them to work hard, get into good study/revision habits, good behaviour etc., in the first couple of years, so that they're ready for when things get harder and more demanding, i.e. GCSE/A level years. A kind of "tough love" really.

We noticed similar with our DS at a grammar. Year 7 was hard in terms of expectations (behaviour and work with punishments/detentions etc for "minor" breaches), but they eased off as the years passed and were pretty lenient in his last few years.

I remember a few teachers doing the same when I was at a comp back in the 70s. One in particular, an English teacher, scared the shit out of us the first time we had him, but in later years was a real softie, but by then, no one mucked about in his class and no one "forgot" to do their homework - good habits and good behaviour had been established!

It's the same at my year 10's private school. One test after another, I've asked her where's the time to learn! My elder girls want to the same school (left over 12 years ago) and I don't remember it being like that. It doesn't seem to bother her and she just tells me I'm out of touch but if your son isn't happy maybe look at some other schools.

@euff yes, same area!

Unsupported DC in any school will suffer.

I think maybe growth mindset type chat might be helpful.
I was lucky because I did excel at grammar school & was on top sets etc, but I wasn’t THE clearest. But I didn’t mind, and was actually really impressed and kind of excited by being around people cleverer than me because it upped my game and I learned off them.
If your son could see that kind of perspective it might help him.
Also if a lot of his self esteem and ego comes from academics it might be the time to think about other qualities and what really matters in a human being.
I have siblings who didn’t go to grammar school who have done much better than me financially and otherwise in life.
There are plenty of other non-exam related skills it’s important to develop and appreciate xx

@Annoynymouse85 small world! Is your school C&S?

You won't find blazers , or any type of school uniform, in these European schools. Kids are more likely to be jeans. Perhaps all this emphasis on appearance distracts from the studying? How weird to care about whether someone is wearing a blazer when sitting in a classroom. Isn't it more important that they are comfortable?