To think DS's school is a bit much - or are all grammars like this?

[Annoynymouse85]

He's in year 8 at a grammar. I had no experience of grammars and was torn between sending him to a non-selective, where he'd probably be top of the class (but the options for boys around here aren't great) or a grammar where...well, I had no idea how he might do at a grammar TBH but he took two 11+ exams (we straddle two areas) and scored well above the pass marks so I assumed he was more than capable. In the end, I let him choose the school he liked best.

There are so many tests - in some subjects, they're set a new test immediately after putting their pen down for the last one. He always has something to revise for. I understand they need to get used to being tested but it seems relentless. Is this the norm for grammars/secondaries in general?

He was doing ok in year 7 but not so great this year - often scoring in the 50s-60% which is really knocking his confidence. He told me tonight that at primary he felt like he was good at subjects but now he feels like he's not doing well at anything. What makes it worse is that the school is so strict - it seems to take the default position that all students are potentially badly behaved so they need to treat them harshly all the time. Endless 'bad behaviour marks' for trivial things such as forgetting a book, rather than what I'd call actual willful bad behaviour. He actually has loads of good behaviour marks but I feel their approach makes well behaved kids feel like they're viewed as having the potential to be bad, iyswim.

He also seems to dislike quite a few teachers, which is just not like him, he's so easy going - I had to complain about one teacher (I have NEVER complained about a teacher!) and was told that several other parents had complained too and that 'things would change soon' (she was sacked, which I was grateful for). Also, they are so obsessed with attendance - they actively keep clearly ill children in school rather than let them go home.

He was such an easy student at primary, who never complained but here, I just don't get a sense that the school is nurturing. Since starting at the school, he's been suffering physical symptoms of anxiety.

I told him the other day that if he wanted to look at moving schools, we could do that - and he didn't baulk at the idea, which surprised me. He said it's not something he definitely wants to do, and he would hate to leave his friends but he wouldn't rule it out. We've agreed we'll see how it goes and talk to teachers at the upcoming parents' evening.

I'm so upset about this. I was so worried about making the wrong school choice for him, particularly as due to Covid, we had to choose a secondary based on videos on schools' websites rather than physical visits.

Is grammar just not for him? I just can't help thinking that if the environment was a little more nurturing and some of the teachers a little nicer, he might be having a more positive experience - or am I being naive, are all grammars like this?

@Sceptre86 we were in the thick of Covid when we had to select his secondary. One school had an actual physical open event, the rest were all pre recorded virtual open days. We were able to email in questions, which I did but I’m sure you understand that “viewing” a school in this way gave us no real feel at all for what it was really like. It was an awful way to have to choose. And yes I posted on local forums about all the schools we were considering and there was a mix of good and bad opinions for all of them.

Hi, sorry your son is not having a great experience. And not all grammar schools are like this - my daughters go to an incredibly nurturing and caring school where they do encourage academic success but also really value the whole person. They also have a great and caring approach which has helped both my girls through varying degrees of anxiety. My son also goes to a different grammar and again, the care is great so far.

Tests do happen lots - once every half term for each subject! But I think that is the case for every school these days sad to say.

I do wonder if it is worth approaching the school - speaking to the head of year or someone in charge of pastoral care and finding out what is available in terms of care and study skills for example. In my experience, it is best to at least approach the school and ask what is available and to point out that constant bad behaviour points for petty things is demoralising and unhelpful for your son. Your highlighting issues may really help your son moving forwards. And at least if you try this and get nowhere, you know that you have done your best with the school? Just a suggestion really 😊

Hope your son gets through this soon 😊

x

I'm going to flip some of this, just to suggest a contrast, because I went to TWO super grammars, one a nice nurturing girls, and the other a tough and old-fashioned mixed school with strict rules.

Basically, it all comes down to three things: 1. Your child's nature and needs 2. His ambitions for himself if he has any yet! 3. Your approach/background to your kids' education.

1. Your child's nature and needs. The best way to describe this is that I went to the super nurturing 'be kind' girls super grammar first, and it's attached primary, and it wasn't ultimately right for my nature. I found its vagueness confusing, and a series of naice teachers having 'little chats' with me and saying things like 'we're all a little concerned about this, Mary, we've been discussing it in the staffroom' (i had various external issues) was HORRIFYING to me. I left and went to the also high performing but more inner city mixed grammar, where we had strict uniform rules, were called by our last names, had our school rules printed in our homework diaries, and had very clear rules and consequences. I THRIVED in this framework, nothing felt personal, I understood the cause and effect, I had the kind of mind that was like 'aha, if i do this thing, that consequence will follow'. At a time when my home life was chaotic, I was relieved to have a stiff structure at school and enjoyed the rigidness of e.g. uniform. But for other personality types, they would hate that!
2. His ambitions for himself: If your child is already thinking that he would like to do something very academically challenging as a grown up, then it is better for him to stay where he is. It is actually very valuable and useful to learn that you are not always the brightest. When you say excel, he IS excelling by being there. If you mean he needs to be top of the class at something, then really you're saying 'it would be better for him to be in a mix of less able kids, as then he could beat them and feel better about himself' - is that really so valuable? Is he not learning something better, that sometimes working hard to be middle of an able pack is worthy? If for example he wants to do aeronautical engineering, or Comp Sci, or pure maths, then he will always be learning that people are more able - is that better now, or when at uni? I, like a pp, was middle to high-ish but not top of the pack in my grammar - I easily kicked ass on my uni course and so got a tremendous esteem boost there.
3. Your own approach/background. It just depends what you want for your child yourself. There is no wrong way, we all want them to be happy and fulfilled and heading towards a happy, fulfilled future. How that is interpreted depends on your background. I and my DH come from completely different parts of the world, but both from tough, WC backgrounds with immigration/emigration involved. It is typical for people like us to grab the opportunity for free, highly challenging education for our kids with both hands and do anything to see them benefit from this! I have bonded with people from so many different cultures who have similar attitudes - it seems to be a theme. If you have a comfortable background in a stable place and wish the same for your child, that understandably might not be such a burning priority for you.

Sorry for this essay, I am very passionate about the different things education can bring and think we don't analyse them enough in this country.

I would just like to assure those questioning the value of my grammar edu that spell check added the ' to the its in the first line! before I am hauled to pedants' corner.

I went to a Grammar in the 90s. I absolutely loved it but I was a naturally good girl who was near the top of the class. I thought the teachers were great with a few exceptions, felt nurtured and don't remember constant tests (we did have end of year exams every year).

However, my friends who were expecting to get Cs at GCSE and were middle to bottom academically mostly hated it. They felt that the teachers thought they weren't worth bothering with and felt stupid until they got to university when they realised they were pretty clever after all! Personality wise, they crumbled under pressure rather than thrived.

I don't think Grammar is for everyone. I went on to Cambridge where I was very mediocre indeed, so I got my challenges there! I did find the transition from top of the class to middle-bottom hard to deal with.

I think this is a good lesson
When he leaves school and goes to work the environment is very competitive and fierce

I think a lot of secondaries are like this and will continue to be when they are judged largely on exam results. My sons go to a non-selective secondary and are in top sets - the overly petty behaviour management (blazers, equipment, late marks) seems standard but has the benefit they don’t tolerate disrupted lessons. My older son in Y11 is on track to get top grades but has constant testing and a level of teaching to the test (to the exclusion of learning anything because it’s interesting) that I find unpalatable. He knows exactly what he needs to do in order to get a 9 in each type of test. We had to speak to school last year and tell them to back off as he developed a stress related tic disorder - I think each teacher spotted a student with the potential to do well and didn’t think about the cumulative pressure across 10 subjects. They have pretty good pastoral care - the same tutor throughout their time at the school so knows them well and they have listened once we spoke to them. The other thing to consider is it’s still not always easy to be the smart kid. My son is a self-identified nerd and has lots of nerdy friends but if your child is not confident still the potential to be bullied for being clever.

So many good points.

Firstly, to give you an idea of tests, he has 3 x geography tests every half term, a weekly French and Spanish tests, maths and science tests at the end of every unit, ad-hoc history assessments.

I take the point about being top of the class, that's not necessarily the best place to be. But he's 'failed' a couple of language tests recently and that's really knocked him.

As for what he wants to do when he grows up - he has no idea yet! I didn't either...not sure I still do! In terms of background, I went to university and like another PP, I was very mediocre although I did get a good degree. I do remember moving up to secondary school and realising that I was no longer the clever kid who could just coast and that I had to really work for good grades, which was a shock to the system so I can understand how DS feels.

I'd really like to talk to the school. I have had contact with a pastoral care teacher recently who DS has been seeing for the past couple of weeks. Do you think this is the best person to talk to about help with study skills - I really don't want to come across as the moaning parent, complaining that their little darling is under too much pressure...

I’m in stem, and I did need tutoring at school when it got harder. It’s not a matter of him not being able, it’s just sometimes everyone needs help. You can help out with homework or with the areas he is struggling with (but I doubt it, as I know from my parents) or you can get a tutor until he’s better.

I don’t understand how quitting is the first option.

The teachers being harsh wouldn’t be such a big issue if he was doing well, it wouldn’t have mattered to you or him as much.

So if it’s not quitting, it’s “talking to the school”… to do what, lower their standards?

You need to get him help, he needs to study extra hours after school. It will help his self esteem in the long term, his attitude in life, etc, and it will help him get a better outcome in life, better job etc.

It might not seem that important to you know, or that it’s just school, just “French “ etc, but you’re modelling and teaching him how to behave when obstacles appear.

no one can just always “cruise” in life.

I come from a former communist country and quitting or getting the school to lower their standards never crossed anyones mind. But here, when for most people poverty means not getting the latest iPhone, I see having a cosy life, no struggles is the aim. ( I know true poverty exists in uk too, but it’s the exception not the rule)

thats why there is not enough British doctors or software engineers, you name it. That’s why nhs is struggling and needs to import foreigners . It doesn’t bode well for uk.

hope you reconsider, for his sake.

I think that can be fairly normal for all high schools - weekly tests in languages were something I remember when I was at school in the 1990s.

the jump between primary and secondary is huge and can be overwhelming for all and the focus on attendance is sadly a government initiative and will be wherever you go.

in my area it is actually DDs grammar that has the most relaxed policy on behaviour etc and rather system yours has is again fairly common.

I would say that moving is a last resort because you are likely to find a lot of these at other schools.

so language - why and what is he failing on. Is he revising at all or understanding?

are they giving you a benchmark as to what 50/60% means in terms of where he is and where he should be. Sometimes the way schools set and mark tests that isn’t the bad result you think.

Daughter in year eight grammar yes they test all the time and get penalty points for forgetting books. I check in regularly with her that she’s coping as we always said passing the exam is the easy bit. You must have expected it would be high pressure though? That sounds snippy sorry but its a selective school they expect a high level of organisation , self motivation and exemplary behaviour.

Yep that's what grammar schools are.You sign up to the bad stuff ( them being put under a lot of pressure) in exchange for them achieving the best results they are capable of.
You pays your money and you takes your choice!

DD is in year 8 at a local grammar. They are common in this area so not taking the top few percent. Her school is strict on things like uniform but there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of testing. She came from a primary that didn't set much work so homework was a shock. Her friends from primary who went to non selectives don't have any less testing or homework. They had formal end of year exam weeks at their schools at the end of year 7 which DD did not have.

I totally agree @CristinaNov182. There is a big issue in UK schools with DC not being willing to put in the required study at home and parents supporting that. There was a thread on here recently where many posters were arguing that 5 hours of study a week was sufficient for GCSE level- you would not see that attitude in most other countries.

On blazers, personally, I think they look smart and schools should have them as part of their uniform. They are a compulsory uniform item so o can understand why schools don’t want them being removed constantly. Of course there should be exceptions for very warm weather if a classroom is roasting but that isn’t an issue much in the U.K.!

I’ve read your posts on the first page and I have to say our local non selective state school one of the DC is at is like this. I was thankful for this when they started being late to school (never done this before but new friends they walk to school with) and the school gave them a detention the next week. It’s immediately nipped it in the bud (hopefully!). we had to listen to some griping on why does it even matter but it wasn’t us ‘going on’ about timekeeping. otherwise In contrast, another DC went to a school where they refused to take part in a particular activity had no consequences and they have taken a bad attitude with them into further education. It’s painful doing all the life lessons at home!

I do empathise with your son though. I never reacted well to strictness. I had particular subject at school where I had a ‘nice teacher’ and a ‘horrid teacher’ and did better the years with the former.

check out the other schools but don’t assume he will be top of the class. He may not do well in a class where there are pupils messing around in a way that younger children at primary school didn’t.

I'm going to post something I regularly do on education-related threads so apologies for repeating myself but it's still a point worth making.

Academic achievement is not linear. All the pedagogic research indicates this. There are a few exceptions who stand out throughout school and university, of course, and we probably all know – or know of – a child like this, but these instances do not negate what the data shows.

There are a myriad reasons for this, ranging from what are called 'internal' factors such as different teachers/styles of learning suiting different children, children being more suited to studying fewer subjects (or possibly just 1 in the case of university), children peaking at different ages (some are brightest at primary school level, perhaps because they pick up new things quickly; others come into their own at sixth form or university), some do well when guided more closely while others thrive when they have to rely on independent learning etc. The there are 'external' factors which include home life in general, the presence or absence of siblings, having caring responsibilities, having parents who do (or don't) value education, being in an environment which is conducive to learning etc. These are just a few examples of factors, there are many more.

In my experience Y8 often sees a bit of a ramp-up after Y7 is treated as a settling-in year, and some DCs might find it a bit of a shock initially. So personally I probably won't be too concerned for a couple more terms.

You’re not being unreasonable in caring and looking out for your child.
But I went to a grammar school and part of the reason I got in and flourished was because I was very academic and loved tests.
I think a large part of the reason we all did very well in exams was because we’d basically done them multiple times already & would’ve been at the standard to pass GCSE (in key subjects) for instance a couple of years before we took them so y10-11 were finessing and getting to the A/A* standard.
So if your son is unhappy with it maybe he isn’t suited to Grammar school?
I genuinely used to live it and still do absolutely love a good test & really is horses for courses!

Muscle memory and exam technique is a HUGE part of doing well in exams x

Just to add, a lot of my school had had either private schools or extensive private tuition to pass the 11+ which put them under a lot of pressure academically and seemingly performing higher than a kid with natural ability who’d passed “on their own merit”.
I saw lots of kids in my school who weren’t actually grammar school bright, just extensively tutored and pressured so actually couldn’t cope with the academic/intellectual demands of grammar because it was a struggle for them and they didn’t ebook it enough.
Am very grateful that my parents hadn’t paid or overly invested in me passing the 11+ & I always just loved learning and enjoyed the experience.
Did see a lot of kids on antidepressants and anorexic & anxious during the later years as they just couldn’t keep up or were excessively worried about it.
I personally wouldn’t coach or tutor my children for the 11+ if they didn’t have natural ability or show lots of interest for that reason. It’s very possible to do very well at normal state school, with a bit of extra tutoring if needed vs the constant pressure of grammar to be the top 1% when in reality you’re never going to be more than top 20%.
Personally am happy if my kids are happy and I don’t care where they fall in academic centiles, academics are only one element of life and just because it’s my passion I don’t need to force this on my children.
Has to be horses for courses and grammar isn’t worth it if it’s causing distress xx

enjoy not ebook!

Have you considered he may need a tutor now?

My dd went to grammar (not tutored apart from a holiday course and a few bond books at home) and still struggled once she got there in a couple of subjects. We got her tutors and her confidence went up massively along with her grades. Gaps had formed due to teacher absence, quality of some teachers and her own motivation. It was hugely affecting her happiness.

The teaching in many schools, whether they be grammar or not, is very hit and miss. There is a massive recruitment and retention issue and has been for years. The lessons at school may well not be enough to get your child the grades they want.

My son is in year 8 at the most oversubscribed secondary in our city. Sounds pretty similar. You do sound a bit precious about his behaviour points. Forgetting equipment is definitely a C1 and he’s not going to like every single teacher. It all sounds pretty normal and yes even secondaries that are not grammars are relentless in their assessments.

@CristinaNov182 of course I don't want the school to lower their standards. What I really want is for them to demonstrate some sort of care for the students. I'm not talking about mollycoddling them. I'm talking about demonstrably showing an interest in their wellbeing - they talk about mental health all the time but do absolutely nothing to actually support that.

I knew there would be lots of tests at a grammar school - but it's almost to the point where the kids don't seem to get a chance to absorb any information - just test, test, test. In primary, I was often told he had a 'love of learning' - I really don't feel he has that at the moment as there's no focus on making learning interesting or fun.

@thing47 yes, he doesn't react well to strictness either because he's not the sort of kid who needs it. He got a behaviour point the other day because during reading time, he was reading a book from the book shelf at the back of the class rather than bringing in one from home like he was supposed to - 3 small misdemeanours like that will add up to a detention. I'd like to see a bit more emphasis on rewarding good behaviour, rather than focusing on the negative all the time. I think he feels like they're all treated the same - as though they're all badly behaved.

@Quartz2208 no, we get no idea of benchmarking or feedback from the school - only on parents' evening. We had a year 8 expectations evening, and honestly, almost all the time was spent talking about attendance - 'if you're 5 minutes late each day, that adds up to xx days over a year; if you're attendance is 95%, that's xx days you've missed each term...' They bang on and on about it - I've no idea if they have a really bad issue with attendance, but if they do, they clearly need to address it!

I'm not trying to teach him to quit, we've chatted again and agreed that changing school would be a last resort. I just want him to feel happy.

Sounds totally normal for grammar school. They bleed you dry but I'm very grateful for it, it sets you up for life and teaches you to aim high. Some of my friends who didn't go to grammar school had to put up with being in a class with total headcases and there were almost no students like that at my school.