To think DS's school is a bit much - or are all grammars like this?

[Annoynymouse85]

He's in year 8 at a grammar. I had no experience of grammars and was torn between sending him to a non-selective, where he'd probably be top of the class (but the options for boys around here aren't great) or a grammar where...well, I had no idea how he might do at a grammar TBH but he took two 11+ exams (we straddle two areas) and scored well above the pass marks so I assumed he was more than capable. In the end, I let him choose the school he liked best.

There are so many tests - in some subjects, they're set a new test immediately after putting their pen down for the last one. He always has something to revise for. I understand they need to get used to being tested but it seems relentless. Is this the norm for grammars/secondaries in general?

He was doing ok in year 7 but not so great this year - often scoring in the 50s-60% which is really knocking his confidence. He told me tonight that at primary he felt like he was good at subjects but now he feels like he's not doing well at anything. What makes it worse is that the school is so strict - it seems to take the default position that all students are potentially badly behaved so they need to treat them harshly all the time. Endless 'bad behaviour marks' for trivial things such as forgetting a book, rather than what I'd call actual willful bad behaviour. He actually has loads of good behaviour marks but I feel their approach makes well behaved kids feel like they're viewed as having the potential to be bad, iyswim.

He also seems to dislike quite a few teachers, which is just not like him, he's so easy going - I had to complain about one teacher (I have NEVER complained about a teacher!) and was told that several other parents had complained too and that 'things would change soon' (she was sacked, which I was grateful for). Also, they are so obsessed with attendance - they actively keep clearly ill children in school rather than let them go home.

He was such an easy student at primary, who never complained but here, I just don't get a sense that the school is nurturing. Since starting at the school, he's been suffering physical symptoms of anxiety.

I told him the other day that if he wanted to look at moving schools, we could do that - and he didn't baulk at the idea, which surprised me. He said it's not something he definitely wants to do, and he would hate to leave his friends but he wouldn't rule it out. We've agreed we'll see how it goes and talk to teachers at the upcoming parents' evening.

I'm so upset about this. I was so worried about making the wrong school choice for him, particularly as due to Covid, we had to choose a secondary based on videos on schools' websites rather than physical visits.

Is grammar just not for him? I just can't help thinking that if the environment was a little more nurturing and some of the teachers a little nicer, he might be having a more positive experience - or am I being naive, are all grammars like this?

Not all grammars are the same my twins went to different grammars and one is an exam sweat shop as you describe and the other grammar is very fun.
year 7 at grammars age hard - the school tries to weed out the not up to it!
but don’t worry about his scores Grammar tests tend to be harder to cater for the very very bright kids. It never ceases to amaze me my son can get under 50% and it still be considered an above average grade

I would suggest you look for a tutor to start in maths and english but be very clear that you are not necessarily looking for them to teach the subject per se, but to teach him how to study and learn himself. They can base the lessons off the school work /homework he already has so he doesnt get overloaded. Then once he is rocking in those, move on to applying the skillset to science, languages, history etc. If they can teach organizing, planning big projects, breaking stuff down into smaller steps and asking for help if he doesnt understand something, handling procrastination….even better. That is technically known as Executive Functioning and is definitely teachable and a lifelong skill

No, not all grammars are like this at all. I have 2 dc at grammar and they have high academic expectations and test constantly but also really look after the students. The pastoral care is excellent. They really encourage participation in extra curricular activities. I think you have an individual school problem not a grammar school problem.

In my experience most secondary schools pile on the pressure, give stupid amounts of homework, are one size fits all, no appreciation of neurodiversity, have ridiculous zero tolerance discipline about minor issues and are generally like prisons, and it has got exponentially worse in the last few years. There are hardly any school trips or enrichment experiences. Absolutely appalling for teenager's mental health.

DD1's all girls grammar was a lot more relaxed than DD2's. I can't wait for them both to be out the other side.

DD2's non selective school I meant to say.

Haven’t read all thread so someone may have suggested but many schools have mentors in 6th form who will provide support to younger students who are struggling for whatever reason. May be worth asking school.

Endless test are common in comprehensive school and grammar.
No two school are alike at all.
I've got one DC in grammar and we find it warm, understanding, amazing pastoralists care and good support for areas where DC struggling.

The comp is an exam factory and doesn't seem to care at all about the holistic well being of the child.

I also don't understand this "being the top of the class" DC need to learn it doesn't matter and especially not in a grammar.
Do they need to know where they rank anyway?

I don't see how any child would get a boost knowing they are top in a class which may include DC with undiagnosed Sen etc who are struggling?

Whereas at grammar you are already in the top wherever you rank.

• my other user name

Same , lots of extra curriculum stuff encouraged and you can enter at any level where as the comp said it has lots of club's but most had elite teams you couldn't get into without prior experience.

Both my DC are in local grammar too. Yes assessed all the time but then so are their friends in local non-selective. Seems to be more behaviour problems there though and more bullying which school not so good at sorting.
DCs school were ridiculous in Year 7 with regards to detentions etc. Detention for wrong socks etc. but it seems to have relaxed now. But yes always got to have their blazers on but not their coats!

We had amazing help from school and teachers when my DD had some issues but I don't think I'd describe it as nurturing.

School does teach them how to revise and provide amazing resources for this. My DS however wasn't very receptive to this and didn't have very good revision skills. Just read from his notes! You could try directing him to YouTube. There are many people on there who teach you how to revise and help with revision. In the end this is how DS did well in his GCSEs. Eg Mr Salles for English, PrimroseKitten for Science.

If you are on Facebook ask on a local group about others opinions on the schools.

Was your son tutored for the 11 plus?

My 3 are/were at grammar schools that are nothing like this. Testing is not constant and both schools very nurturing. My y12 has recently commented that she really did very little revision for her GCSEs but the good steady teaching meant she was well prepared - she was saying how much she appreciated that. Oldest went to a different grammar for sixth form and again it was great, not pressurised (head was loopy though and his staff saved the day, they were so dedicated). Both schools put a lot of effort into enrichment.

I think I. Your position I'd be looking at the alternatives again before he gets to exam years.

If you move him to a school where he can effortlessly be number one, you risk denying him that chance to be stimulated and challenged - and you know that he is bright and on some level he will need that challenge, even if at times it can take the form of less desirable challenges like regular testing.

I agree with this. It's probably not a popular view right now but for bright children who can cope, being stretched is not a bad thing. It will be tough at times but if he can cope with this he's in a brilliant position to cope with the challenges of later life.

I do think awareness of the impact of pressure on young people and pastoral care is important but I think in our rush to prioritise this we sometimes risk allowing them to shy at every hurdle. It's a tough balance but to build resilience children do need to be tested and to learn to deal with some failure. If he goes back to a kind but not particularly challenging comprehensive he will probably coast through secondary school and not learn any sense of urgency or ambition.

He's clearly a bright child and can cope with it, there's no indication that his overall mental health is suffering. I would think very carefully before taking him out and depriving him of this chance.

At this age and these of tests he should not need to actually revise. He's being tested on the work he's just learnt and therefore the test is did he actually learn and understand the work.

All secondary schools are very strict on the minor things, correct equipment, correct uniform etc. It's about making them understand that they alone are responsible for their stuff and actions.

Worth talking to the school to find out how he's actually getting on. Eg is 50 per cent in the tests what they expect, he is learning exam technique etc. Or is he actually struggling

DH heads up a grammar school and says you have a individual school problem as most grammars are not like this. Have a look around at alternative grammars again.

Also, did you get him tutoring for the 11+ and then withdraw it once he was accepted? A common problem with parents who do this is that their DC manage to get accepted and then they flounder because they don’t have the natural aptitude for the pace and pressure of a grammar school environment.

Thanks all.

Luckily he’s never experienced any bullying at his school which I’m very thankful for.

It’s not that I want him to be top of the class - I just want him to feel like he’s excelling at something. He doesn’t really feel like that about any of his subjects at the moment.

Yes, he was tutored for the 11+ but not intensively at all - an hour a week in yr 5 plus homework. I know some people will argue that if you tutor a child to pass the exam, they might struggle when they get to grammar school but honestly you almost don’t really have a choice whether to tutor where we live - EVERYBODY does it so your child is at a disadvantage if they don’t.

I don’t think what your DS is experiencing is necessarily unusual- I would expect the majority of DC going to an intense grammar to take time to adjust (the exception being perhaps if they’ve attended a top prep).

My questions would be- does he know how to revise and how much time is he spending on study/revision at home? If you can get him into a good routine of revision and getting better results in his tests, that will give him a big confidence boost.

I also suspect the alternative options you would look at will have very similar strict rules and policies. My DC are at private but aren’t allowed to take their blazers off in class unless the head has given permission.

DC1 is year 7 in a comprehensive. It's reasonably high achieving, with much better progress and attainment 8 score than the LA average. (Can't compare to grammars because it's non selective). The testing is nothing like what you describe. There is homework, and a lot more than primary. But there is a test set only at the end of a module, and not all subjects. I might remember it incorrectly, but DC1 has only had 2 science tests and nothing else so far. Other subjects are coursework only.

Do you know anyone who has children going to the other school? Are they academic?

Oh and our comprehensive has no blazer. They don't have to keep their sweatshirt on. Plenty of them walk to school with their polos. However I think not having a blazer isn't the norm even in comprehensives.

Have to say I’m struggling to think of any secondary in my area that doesn’t have blazers.

Not sure I’d want my DC at school in polo shirts in any event tbh!

@Stackss That's why I think it's not the norm. I think most of blazers and are quite strict about keeping them on. It's very difficult to wear under coats too.

I like the polos and sweatshirt combo though. It's easy to put them through the washing machine. No ironing either.

All grammar schools will have open days or evenings, whether virtual or otherwise. If you've missed the date you can normally arrange a visit outwith. They can often put you in touch with other parents or you could ask on a local Facebook page.Why did you not do this? Did you really just send your child to a secondary school with little or no contact?

It's a given that grammar schools are likely to be more intense than an average school but with testing they can identify where your child needs extra support and you can help. I'd go back to the school and insist on speaking to his head of form or year to speak about how he can be supported If you get no response then that would be telling. It's sad to hear that your son is displaying symptoms of anxiety. I'd work with him to increase his confidence so if he doesn't understand how to revise look at different methods to support him. Work with him to understand that there are so many more kids in secondary school so being top at primary doesn't mean he would be now. That we all learn at different paces and that's OK, if there's a concept he is struggling to understand work on it with him. His self worth us much more than just how he fares in academia. A good school will be supportive

If you do decide to move schools really do research before moving him. Speak to parents, visit the schools, get a real feel of the place before you move him.

Both mine are at grammar school ( different ones as the schools are single sex in my area). DS's school definitely does more testing than DD's. Do you think the issue here is the shock of moving from primary to secondary with the added horror of going from being top of the class to being in a school where most of the kids are as academic or more academic than your DS? It takes a bit of getting used to not being as special as you used to be. If he really loathes it you are doing the right thing and discussing moving him. I hated the school I was at and my parents refused to even discuss it with me. If he's bright and has supportive parents ( which clearly he does) he'll do OK wherever you decide to put him.

I went to a grammar school. I was always in the bottom half of the scores for any tests or homework marks.

I quite liked school but always assumed I wasn't particularly clever.

It wasn't until I left school that I understood that I was actually quite able and have a great memory. Always being compared to some truly very gifted students really knocked my self belief and confidence.

My children attend a non selective school now. We don't live in a grammar area. Their school achieves good results and the teachers seem so caring and nurturing. The lessons (from my lockdown home school experience) are also more interesting. Students are put in ability sets for the key subjects so the more able arexstill stretched while those that need more time and help get extra support. My grammar school teachers didn't really put much effort into lessons because they knew the pupils were bright enough to still get good results.

I personally think I'd have done better at a school like my children go to.

I'd suggest going and having a look around the other schools that are available.

I think some of these things are fairly standard for all secondary schools, comp or grammar- it's very common for a secondary to feel less nurturing (or perhaps better put, to encourage more independence) than a primary. Likewise things like conduct marks for forgetting a book are standard- the aim is to move students from the primary mindset (where things like this are supervised by teachers and parents) to the mindset of an independent learner, where they take responsibility for eg having the right books in class. It is an adjustment and takes some children longer than others but I think you're likely to find something similar wherever you go.

Likewise testing- this sort of continuous testing is standard now in a lot of schools and not necessarily a bad thing given what GCSEs are like. Again I think coping well with it involves developing the right mindset, so that tests are seen as just a normal part of school rather than an occasion for worry. If he's coming from a school which didn't test and his only real experience is doing the 11+ then it may be that he's thinking about the tests in the wrong way (or the way that's wrong for that school)- would it help him to try to think of them simply as his teacher's way of checking whether he's on track or needing more support, rather than worrying about pass/fail?

I think having a chat with his class teacher about it all is the way to go, and it might be better to book a longer appointment rather than trying to raise it at parents' evening (if your school is like ours, you don't get long!) But I wouldn't rush into anything and I'd try to work out which of the issues are specific to the school and which are just part of the adjustment to what secondary is often like. It would be a shame to have all the upheaval of moving only to find you have the same issues.

My eldest goes to the local comp and they have 3 full rounds of exams per year in every subject apart from sports and art, every other term. It is the source of much anxiety! Last lot they did, two were marked incorrectly and one paper was lost and they said they “must not have taken the test” even though they did and were present that day for other subject tests.

Too much pressure on both schools and kids.