Supporting nhs consultant doctors industrial action

[Lapland123]

I hope this has public support. Consultants have seen the largest pay erosion in public services- now 35 % pay erosion since 2010.

Add the pension debacle, where we are asked for real money now for a theoretical glitch in how pensions are calculated. The ‘real money ‘ bill now can be 6+ months of your take home pay annually. Yes, really.

Vacancies exist in multiple specialties and the day to day job is more and more difficult in the context of vacancies throughout the nhs

I hope we have support for industrial action due to this government’s disgraceful erosion of our pay though we are working harder than ever

How will more pay make things less stressful
because less people will leave and we’ll work on fully staffed rotas.

@Jazz12 if you are earning £300-500k on minimal tax in another country I’m not sure it matters if your pension isn’t gold plated.

Why haven’t you left? (Answer: your gold plated pension?)

Then why are you here? There is surely a reason?

Lol, do you want the tax payer to fund your training, give you a fat pension and Pay you £500k !?

I guess anyone on a final salary pension scheme has a vested interest in getting the salary on which it’s based as high as possible.

@Jazz12

1. I don’t want to live in a different country
2. i mostly enjoy my job and 99% of my patients and my staff appreciate me and what I bring on a daily basis.
3. it would be a complete and utter waste of my expertise and tax payers money if I gave up to play tennis and go to school coffee mornings. I have a moral obligation to give back to society….but not at any (low) price.

Strikes don't occur from or rely on public support. They're a last resort when negotiation fails. So all the noise about tax evasion and who's worth what and how many medical school places there should be is just noise.

Quite simply when I feel I'm not being paid fairly ("fairly" is all I require, not "well") that'll be because I have better options. So I'll reduce my hours, shift elsewhere, etc. If there are no better options and the job is too much to stomach, change job. The consultant shortage and resultant queues can be very easily addressed by paying more, and I'll do more. I certainly won't do more than say 50% of my contracted time just because you can't afford me. That's not my problem, and potentially dangerous all round, especially since I've already given 50% more for free. If you can get someone cheaper, great for you, and every time you ask me back to fix the problems caused by your penny pinching I'll up my fees; go elsewhere if that's better. Even an idiot would work out that it's better value getting it right "first and fast". When you're dealing with a limited mentality, only actions speak. I don't need to go on strike, that's way down at a point in the road that I'll never reach or choose.

It's a tad ridiculous to ask for support just because you're "working hard" or your pay has been eroded 35%. Look around you. If you're worth more, walk and if there's nowhere to walk to, then that's what you believe you're worth. If people think or hope that treatments can all be delivered with the cost reductions that technology and globalisation has done for commodities, let them learn which can and which can't at their own personal cost. If not enough care enough to have a universal health system, it won't be fully trained consultants that lose that war. So if MN wishes to note YABU unanimously against consultants striking, that's perfectly good noise.

£100k is a lot of money and I can see why to someone outside the profession will say it’s a high wage, because in pure monetary terms it is when compared with a lot of other jobs.
But it’s not enough for the hours, responsibility, the consequences of each and every decision, stress and the length of time it take to get to that wage.

No 18 year old choosing the career can appreciate this - plus the nature of the job, the complexities of diseases, treatments, the wages, pensions etc have all changed incredibly since the UCAS application forms went at age 17.

I support workers. All workers.

Thank you to the doctors on the thread and others who have explained the tax implications in regards to pensions, I was aware there were issues surrounding pensions but hadn’t understood it clearly before now. It’s totally baffling and needs some amendments, I can’t begrudge anyone for not wanting to operate with the current system of uncertainty on top of a highly skilled and stressful job.

ultimately, we need doctors and consultants.
I want a consultant to be healthy and happy in their work, to treat me, my family and the British people as and when we need to call upon their services. As well as all other medical professionals and support staff who provide us with the healthcare society needs.

I’m appalled at the way some people want to tear down essential workers, fellow human beings who are wanting to go to work and provide services for others. Why are some people so determined to pit one another against each other? Fixated on figures and salaries.

Anyone who is a worker is not at the crux of wealth inequality. Not teachers, consultants, train drivers, administrators, nurses, miners, factory workers, retail assistants etc. Anyone who wakes up and goes to work is not the problem. We’re all relative small fry in the U.K. and global wealth inequality.

Billionaires don’t have an alarm clock to get to their night shift. More of them than ever before. Where’s the money going to come from to produce more and wealthier billionaires?? No one seems to be concerned about how their wealth always seems to grow.

‘Look over there!’ The puppet masters keep telling us whenever we glance in their direction, ‘A consultant wants a pay rise? When you’re only on a pittance!? How bloody dare they!’ Watch us all squabble and fight. Don’t watch the mega rich getting richer.

We need doctors. We need workers.

For those suggesting consultants are saying ‘it’s not about money’.
no, it is very much about money. Thought that was clear from
opening post. The pension disaster and the pay erosion need addressing immediately.

it is all about money

I’m afraid I simply can’t get on board with a ‘pension disaster’ for people retiring on final salary schemes, linked to six figure salaries. A ‘pension disaster’ is pensioners struggling on £10k pa state pension, or retail/hospitality workers who can’t afford to pay into their DC schemes, or carers, also working 60-70 hrs a week with nothing but a state pension to look forward to. That needs fixing first.

Just because someone has a high income, does not necessarily mean that they are not underpaid
yes the income of consultants is high. But is it an appropriate wage for the work they do?

@Jazz12 - according to economic principles you can do 2 things to improve staffing - increase the benefits (eg pay, pension) or increase the supply (recruit more doctors from abroad, reduce the requirements to become a consultant).

There is some false economy in refusing to pay consultants more - you get understaffing and requirement to hire more locum consultants at extortionate cost (including agencies getting a cut).

I looked into "scheme pays" it is not simply a matter of you were over say £25000 you need to pay back the 40% tax relief on that from your pension scheme straight away. The above would not infact be too bad. Instead it is taken as a loan and you pay it back when you retire /draw your pension. In the mean time interest is charged at inflation add 2.4 (so e.g. this year circa 10.1 + 2.4 percent). This is compound interest. It is like an equity release scheme on your pension scheme lasting potentially decades.

For goodness sake

You pay more money
People stop leaving and some come back
The wards/A&E/GP practices are safer because they aren't understaffed
Conditions are better

Is it that hard to understand?

Well I've walked, partly

I was a full time GP
Now I spent 2 days maximum per week with patients, sometimes 1, and I run my own business from home the rest of the time , doing medically related things. It pays much better and is much more flexible.

I'm a GP appraiser too. At least 75% of the GPs that I appraise have done the same or are considering it and it's largely due to the stress of working in a system which is falling down round our ears.

So you support brain drain of other countries. They sure as hell will NOT be coming from other “first-world” countries like the US considering the pay.

No those Drs really prefer US/Canada/Australia due to the pay. They come here as a stepping stone.

Oh, so you do understand the concept that actions on one day have an effect on another day?
But you don't understand the concept that driving down pay and conditions to the point where your workforce all leaves will cause more avoidable deaths than a few strike days.

‘I completely support you OP. How anyone can start a “what’s the average salary” question is not worth engaging with.’

I totally agree. I’m sick to death of the ‘we’ve had enough of experts’ crowd. They won’t stop until this country is on the floor.

People like you will destroy this country with your spite. Instead of being jealous of people working hard to earn qualifications in a job which saves lives, why don’t you get off your arse and do the same.

The Tories can always rely on the jealousy and vindictive vote from those who don’t realise they’re cutting off their noses off to spite their own face.

I agree. They are the first to rush to GP/AE with even minor problems. Extremely entitled too.

I honestly think consultants should seriously consider alternative forms of practice such as working for ISTCs some paying a lot more than NHS salary, private group consortium's or even leaving completely altogether. Many do in my specialty.

I am a consultant in Australia, as is my NHS trained (well, partially trained, he completed training here) DH.

I didn’t start my training here either but I’ve never come across, “Well, I pay your wages” or “I work in a shop, how come you earn more than me?” as an attitude, even in my various public hospital jobs.

Australia has a fully “free” public hospital system with everything that is offered through the NHS as well as its private hospitals and private outpatient specialists.

Many people will use both private and public services in their lifetime, no one seems to expect being a doctor is a vocation, with pay less important, or that highly trained, highly skilled specialists aren’t worthy of decent pay.

The irony of course, is that with NHS consultants leaving, working part time or junior doctors emigrating there will be more people looking for private care in the UK. In Australia the government contributes to private providers’ costs (doctors, labs, X-rays, therapists etc) whereas private care in the UK seems astronomically expensive in comparison.

NHS is not a wealth creation scheme for doctors! It’s a great system where everyone has access to healthcare regardless of their financial circumstances. NHS is struggling and consultants want to take advantage of the current circumstances and demand more money holding peoples lives to ransom because they don’t feel rich enough or other countries pay more. Wtf? . And you expect support ?

£100k is a great salary.
Some countries pay doctors more. so? Some countries pay less too. So would you take a pay cut?
Tech pays double my salary in SFO. Are you saying all tech ppl should go on a strike demanding more? Oh we save lives too. We ENABLE doctors to save more lives. Airlines run on tech, trains need tech, nhs needs tech, the world needs tech. SO?
Doctors save lives. Because that’s what they are trained to do.