Supporting nhs consultant doctors industrial action

[Lapland123]

I hope this has public support. Consultants have seen the largest pay erosion in public services- now 35 % pay erosion since 2010.

Add the pension debacle, where we are asked for real money now for a theoretical glitch in how pensions are calculated. The ‘real money ‘ bill now can be 6+ months of your take home pay annually. Yes, really.

Vacancies exist in multiple specialties and the day to day job is more and more difficult in the context of vacancies throughout the nhs

I hope we have support for industrial action due to this government’s disgraceful erosion of our pay though we are working harder than ever

Not open wide enough. Our population has gone up and we simply need more doctors. Paying existing consultants more suddenly cannot create more time. It’s just not safe to compensate doctors to overwork. Mistakes will happen.

If you want someone to do a difficult, risky job, in poor working conditions, for which any honest mistake could land them in court or prison, day in and day out for decades, you need to pay them well. Funnily enough, if you take intelligent educated people, with transferable skills and you treat them like something you'd wipe off your shoe, they leave.

!! Firstly how long would it take these people to come through medical school and through to consultant level? But even if there were enough uni places to get their degrees, junior doctors need to be supervised and trained by consultants. That is actually a rate limiting step to training more doctors - there aren’t the placements for the junior doctors to do.

Oh dear.
Yes, they are all campaigning to avoid paying taxes

A bit like a company car, where you get taxed despite never receiving real money from which you can pay the tax.

Nope, wrong again. No private work for A&E consultants. No private work in obstetrics outside London and maybe one or two other major cities in the UK. Only three hospitals in the UK have any significant private work for pathologists. It's a myth that all consultants have big private incomes. Some do. Many don't.

Well, more won’t leave for a start. The existing consultants will do extra shifts, if they aren’t going to get stung by the pension tax. And some who have reduced their hours to avoid the pension tax will do more hours.

". Paying existing consultants more suddenly cannot create more time. It’s just not safe to compensate doctors to overwork. Mistakes will happen."

Stopping the punitive AA tax burden will stop hordes of them retiring , it worked for
Judges I can't see why they can't sort it out for NHD staff . Being taxed on hypothetical gains is ridiculous,

Sorry but I think they get paid more than enough. Nobody is going to be supportive of a pay rise for someone on £100k. That’s 5x some people’s salary.

And 50x the responsibility that some people take.

This makes no sense - they are leaving the pension scheme and reducing their hours i.e reducing their income, as the tax is so punitive.
They are not trying to avoid paying tax that is owed.
They cannot control how much goes into their pension - they cannot avoid exceeding the annual allowance and thereby avoid a tax penalty. Unless they leave the scheme and/or reduce their hours.
Any pension they draw will also be taxed.

It sounds opaque because it is opaque.

Yes but you know before you get a company car what the tax will be. Pension growth is completely unpredictable and varies wildly from year to year.

There was (quite rightly) absolute uproar when Liz Truss tried to cut taxes for people earning over £150k. I suspect this would go the same way.

Consultants- Strike!

You are worth more.

My 2 smartest friends from uni were doctors, both left just before consultant level. One abroad having a 1000x better quality of life, the other a management consultant earning 5x a consultant doctor salary and and 1million x better working conditions. Plus never going to get sued for manslaughter

Or may return to full-time work or do an extra catch up clinic on a rota with other colleagues

@Jazz12 Jazz12 · Today 21:31
I totally agree that NHS need more doctors. More nurses. More support staff.
I don’t understand how paying NHS consultants more money suddenly takes away all the stress and improve working conditions? Some more money and suddenly they find the current situation acceptable!?

there is a point at which paying more makes no difference. I’m an NHS consultant. DH works in finance and his salary dwarfs mine. We don’t need my salary, not even for luxuries……we can afford a nanny and a housekeeper to keep the fires burning while I work. Most senior NHS consultants are on a take home of approx £60-70k, which can probably afford a cleaner, but not a nanny. When your shifts start at 8am, unless you work next door to your childcare facility it’s almost impossible to find childcare. If you can afford to outsource the domestic drudge it makes the day job more bearable. If you can’t then you need to consider whether it’s worth it.
Consultants in other countries with similar standards of living get paid vastly more (double in Oz and at least triple in the US), and they don’t appear to have the same staffing crisis- esp Oz who seem to be the main beneficiary of the UK medical training system. There might just be a link.

If consultants are so put off by the pension scheme and its tax implications, the obvious answer, is to leave it. They will still be on £100k salary, which is ample for them to then join a private scheme. There are plenty to choose from and they still attract tax relief but with far more visibility as to what is going in and ensure they stay within the AA.

It has been explained several times. Working in a system that is dangerously understaffed is immensely stressful. Pay more and remove the pension AA tax - less understaffing - less stressful - people will stay.

As opposed to the current vicious cycle or poor pay and crap working conditions - people leave - more stressful for those left behind - more leave.

Conditions don’t improve my paying them more! The risks are still there, it’s still unsafe!

I totally agree conditions need to improve. Money must go into the right things to ease workload and reduce wait lists. Simply paying consultants more won’t change that. Consultants are fairly compensated relative to others in the NHS.

Dangerously understaffed IS THE POINT! Not underpaid. £100k is high income !

I’m afraid I don’t support this at all.

the annual allowance does need scrapping. If someone wants to put their money into a pension rather than spending it now then that should be up to them. However in very basic terms what is happening is that consultants get incredibly generous and unrivalled DB pensions based on their final salary and career average salary. This is guaranteed with zero risk.

In high inflation years in particular there is significant growth in the value of the funds. This is free money. It’s happened with no effort on the part of the consultant. This is treated as a further contribution and IF the doctor earns a lot of money it can result in a situation where the doctor goes over their annual tax free allowance. Yes they get a tax bill in that situation the same as a private sector worker would but Scheme Pays allows them to pay the tax bill out of that free chunk of money they’ve just had in the pension. But they don’t want to do that of course! It’s completely unreasonable for them not to use Scheme Pays. They want to have their cake and eat it here.

For the consultants the solution apparently seems to be to insist on even more money or they’ll withdraw their labour.. But this isn’t about money..

How will more pay make things less stressful !? ??

Absolutely!

@monitor1 I agree with you. The point I was making (badly) was that we aren’t at the point of pay making no difference. Makes no difference to me because my salary is if almost no significance to our household income. I work because we can afford to outsource pretty much everything else. Most of my colleagues are the main if not the sole breadwinner without the option to outsource. I’m sure if pay was increased many consultants would stay.

They don’t have gold plated pensions.