Supporting nhs consultant doctors industrial action

[Lapland123]

I hope this has public support. Consultants have seen the largest pay erosion in public services- now 35 % pay erosion since 2010.

Add the pension debacle, where we are asked for real money now for a theoretical glitch in how pensions are calculated. The ‘real money ‘ bill now can be 6+ months of your take home pay annually. Yes, really.

Vacancies exist in multiple specialties and the day to day job is more and more difficult in the context of vacancies throughout the nhs

I hope we have support for industrial action due to this government’s disgraceful erosion of our pay though we are working harder than ever

I think you misunderstand.

Whilst LTA is another issue the current pension crisis has nothing to do with this.

This is about annual allowance and how the NHS pension calculates growth with regards to inflation.

The LTA may lead to consultants retiring early. It is the annual allowance limit leads to huge tax bills frequently when a doctor has just become a consultant (due to CAE).

yes both of these pension issues are taking consultants from the nhs.

the more immediate one is the Annual allowance as that results in a yearly huge tax bill that negates the last 6 months I’ve worked and prevents me from paying my bills and mortgage

that’s the one that stops me from remaining a nhs consultant immediately- I can’t afford to be part of this

Can you explain a bit more?

Next tax year with NHS pensions being inflation linked I think loads of pension schemes will have been calculated to have breeched the annual allowance and HMRC bills will be huge.

The other thread stated out really supportive and had a mature discussion around the issues and possible fixes but sadly descended quite quickly into slagging off consultants as high earners.

This problems, the pensions one, has rumbled on for such a long time now and caused so much damage. My friend works in a department where Hal of consultants have left or are leaving due to not anting a five figure tax bill for coming to work.

behind you 100%

If salaries and the pension issue deter present consultants from NHS work (as evidenced by statistical data, not hearsay and anecdote from individuals) or deter recruitment or retention then the Tory government should treat it like any other market problem. Trouble is, they seem to have their heads in the sand when they are not in the trough.

You can put £40k into a pension per year and get tax relief on it. For most pensions you just add up your employer's and employee's contributions and as long as that is <£40k, no tax to be paid. For the NHS pension they calculate your theoretical growth in the scheme and tax you on that. It's related to inflation so has been huge this year.

My husband has, apparently, had £65k of growth in his pension and so he is being taxed on £25k. This is the equivalent to him having put more than his entire take home salary into his pension. Basically doctors who have done the same job for a decade are suddenly being faced with five figure tax bills for theoretical growth on a pension. In their droves they are leaving or going part-time as they literally can't afford to work any more.

oh dear. Someone else who has no idea what they are talking about. LTA is a relatively trivial issue, it's AA that is driving consultants from the NHS.

I can support most of the public service strikes, but consultants and GPs are well paid anyway.

My consultants do a lot of private work as well, which earns them extra.

So, no, I don't think either should strike.😗

Interestingly the NHS pension is meant to be drawn (without penalty) at retirement age (obviously if over lifetime allowance normal tax penalties will apply).

If however the state pension age rises then the value of the pension will effectively have shrunk, will doctors then be paid back what they have been charged for breaching the £40000 annual limit?

Our doctor training is heavily subsidised. When yoh compare salaries across countries, you should also compare costs of college, training etc.

also, do all NHS consultants work 5 days to recieve full pay ? Most work 3.5 days plus have thriving private practices.

Even with a real terms cut, consultants earn enough that are more able to cut expenditure rather than the basic necessities of life, than many

But why shouldn’t they?! They are dealing with life and deaths every day. How stressful is that?! And they train for years and years. Why shouldn’t they earn a high salary?

I supppet them, but l though thought it was teachers who had the biggest pay cuts.

where does that leave the British public though?

Who cares at this point to be honest. Many despise those who dare to earn a decent salary even if its below what it should be, we'd all earn more in a hybrid or private model so I'd be all for it.

Exactly.

Consultants are grossly underpaid compared to what those in other countries earn or indeed what can be earned in the private sector with a busy private practice. That's the comparator - not what someone in Aldi earns.

Anyway - I'm increasingly sensing that the impressively elastic goodwill of all medical professionals is about to snap and the general public need to understand that they're probably going to have to pay more (or at least differently) for healthcare. They'll also receive better service than they do.

‘Consultants earn enough that they are able to cut expenditure’
Realistically most consultants are not turning up to work purely for love of their job. They don’t want to work extremely stressful jobs with poor conditions to afford the basics and nothing more.
where would you draw the line? Should they be downsizing their homes because they cannot afford to pay their mortgage?
This shouldn’t be a race to the bottom
ultimately they need to be fairly compensated for the work they do or they will leave- which is what is happening

Start with buying homes they can afford perhaps. Anyone with tightly stretched finances to buy mcmansions at rock bottom interest rates has this problem.

£100k+ is a great salary to be on. Add a second income to that, it’s a lot of money to live comfortably on. Most consultants have private practices.

If someone wants a huge detached house close to London, two children in a private school, a house wife and a model x, a consultant’s salary won’t cut it.

if you compare with countries where doctors get paid significantly more,

1. Those countries have private health care
2. cost of becoming a doctor there is very very high,

Afford basics!?? With £100k+ salaries !?? How are other mortals living then!??

I wasn’t saying this is the case at the moment. I was trying to ask how far people think erosion of pay should go before addressing the issue ?

Exactly, we should be pushing for private healthcare if we work in the NHS as we will recieve better wages and better working conditions. The cost of training isn't the full picture, in the US for example you have an extremely stressful and full on residency but can earn a reasonable wage much faster than in the UK (not to mention it continues to outpace us through the ranks). People invariably supplement their income with private practice as its more in-line with reasonable earnings; plenty would do FT hours in the NHS if it was better paid. £100k is a decent salary compared to others yes, but the jobs aren't like for like are they.

A 35%!? That is a huge amount!
I do support, for the working conditions, work load, paperwork and so on.
For wages, not sure as to be honest my little understanding of economics tells me the country may very well not have the £££s to do so and still keep a hold on inflation.
I do not mean I do not think you deserve a comfortable life after what you do and all prices keep going up and up and up. I am just concerned about how to sort the economy issue for all of us.
I want this government gone.
I do hope you do not actually have to strike. I really wish we can get rid of them before it comes to that.

The pay is often lower than that quoted. Many consultants are not employed by the NHS at all, they are employed by universities with attached teaching hospitals and are lecturers. Their pay is often significantly below that of a consultant employed directly by the NHS

They still have the same hours, shifts oncall over night, weekends and public holidays, etc though

@Somuchgoo it’s a high wage but it’s not a “normal” job so don’t compare it to one that is less skilled. Huge personal and financial sacrifices to get there. I’m a junior doctor now.

If I work in a low paid job for 37.5 hours a week that is incomparable to the training/stress/responsibility and the fact that most of the population simply could not do this job. I spend thousands a year on student loans. I’ve spent thousands on post grad exams. I’ve missed countless personal events to be at work. I’ve watched and been a part of truly traumatic and terrible things and I’m only 30.

This is not a “normal” job. This is a life consuming entity and consultants deserve to be paid fairly. And doctors in the U.K. are paid a fraction of those in other similar countries.

Pay us fairly for the above sacrifices of we’ll leave for countries that will and where our working conditions are not so appalling. Would you really do a job this demanding for a rapidly decreasing salary?

Lots of consultants work full time hours for a part time wage. As part time as a doctor is never part time, so plenty are on far less than the stated figures.

Doctors are striking because if pay and conditions don’t improve we know there won’t be anyone left to look after patients in 10 years time.