Page 14 | Supporting nhs consultant doctors industrial action

Lapland123 · 2023-01-31T13:54:01+00:00

I hope this has public support. Consultants have seen the largest pay erosion in public services- now 35 % pay erosion since 2010. Add the pension debacle, where we are asked for real money now for a theoretical glitch in how pensions are calculated. The ‘real money ‘ bill now can be 6+ months of your take home pay annually. Yes, really. Vacancies exist in multiple specialties and the day to day job is more and more difficult in the context of vacancies throughout the nhs I hope we have support for industrial action due to this government’s disgraceful erosion of our pay though we are working harder than ever

Grumpsy · 02/02/2023 21:44

Lapland123 · 02/02/2023 17:18

I’m very glad this thread has helped solidify views and a decision to vote for industrial action. In many ways I’ve wondered these last few years why this wasn’t raised. I wondered what pay erosion would we continue with-50%? 75%?!

Would some continue to work for nhs when they are getting such a tax bill, which means their take home pay after that is less than halved? Only those with some random other source of income, not from their job, would stay in such a scenario.

looking forward to progressing this as soon as possible and striking.

@Lapland123 just so you know not all of the public are against you, I for one support your actions, value the work you do, and don’t expect you to work far more hours than the average person in crap conditions for a salary not commensurate with your skills. I am honestly surprised more consultants haven’t emigrated to other countries where they will be valued.

Original poster

Lapland123 · 02/02/2023 22:07

Grumpsy

thank you so much- your support means a lot. This is the only way forward to keep consultants in the nhs. I imagine many newly qualified consultants, fresh from specialty training, will go abroad or certainly don’t seem keen to take up nhs consultant jobs. Once have kids, moving country is that much trickier. More likely to move to less or no nhs sessions and working privately as a more realistic alternative. However if the pensions debacle and enormous erosion of pay were addressed, I expect consultants will want to work in it again

thank you

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Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:46

WeAreBorg · 01/02/2023 18:26

I tried to read this thread but had to stop halfway after someone compared NHS consultants to their cousin working at Aldi, a few said they should purely work for the love of the job as it’s a vocation and some dude, I think it was @Jazz12 found it utterly perplexing that doctors can’t cough up 40K per year to pay their tax bill. Despite them all being Tories who all have a “thriving” private practice 😂
Oh also that the foreigns have no problem working for low wages so that’s the answer - make the brown people do the job for half the price

Feeling very relieved that none of those guys are operating on me any time soon

It you are in a life and death situation, I hope you still won’t be as stupid and racist to choose not to be operated on by a brown person.
There are people willing to work for less. Skin colour doesn’t automatically mean less skilled. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:55

monitor1 · 02/02/2023 14:20

I think we should give up Lapland123. Some people just don't have the intellectual capability to understand the issues.....

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God! This is the problem with you lot!

just because people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they lack intellectual capacity. This statement just shows your level of intelligence!
not all intelligent people choose medicine. Read that again. Going by this thread, not all doctors are intelligent. Don’t really dumb entitled docs here ! There is a high possibility that many smart people chose to do something else other than medicine. So you and your supporters should understand every non-doc isn’t working for minimum wage in a supermarket!
£100k is a lot of money. You knew from day 1 that NHS is not a money making organisation. You cannot join a charity and expect ibank salaries!

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:59

You docs have to work harder to convince people you shouldn’t be paying your fair share of taxes.

I am a 45% tax payer. That means, taxes take around 5 months of my pay. That’s how it works. It negates everything I earn 5 months a year.

monitor1 · 03/02/2023 05:31

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:55

God! This is the problem with you lot!

just because people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they lack intellectual capacity. This statement just shows your level of intelligence!
not all intelligent people choose medicine. Read that again. Going by this thread, not all doctors are intelligent. Don’t really dumb entitled docs here ! There is a high possibility that many smart people chose to do something else other than medicine. So you and your supporters should understand every non-doc isn’t working for minimum wage in a supermarket!
£100k is a lot of money. You knew from day 1 that NHS is not a money making organisation. You cannot join a charity and expect ibank salaries!

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Fine for people to disagree with me.

I'm casting aspersions on the intelligence of those who have completely failed to understand the factual issues on this thread, around tax, pensions and avoidable deaths.

monitor1 · 03/02/2023 05:32

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:59

You docs have to work harder to convince people you shouldn’t be paying your fair share of taxes.

I am a 45% tax payer. That means, taxes take around 5 months of my pay. That’s how it works. It negates everything I earn 5 months a year.

Really? thank you for that explanation, I'd never have guessed that that's how tax works.

jgw1 · 03/02/2023 06:08

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:59

You docs have to work harder to convince people you shouldn’t be paying your fair share of taxes.

I am a 45% tax payer. That means, taxes take around 5 months of my pay. That’s how it works. It negates everything I earn 5 months a year.

Jest for completeness I feel obliged to point out that @Jazz12 pays a smaller proportion of their income in tax than a hospital cleaner does.

Original poster

Lapland123 · 03/02/2023 07:18

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:55

God! This is the problem with you lot!

just because people disagree with you, it doesn’t mean they lack intellectual capacity. This statement just shows your level of intelligence!
not all intelligent people choose medicine. Read that again. Going by this thread, not all doctors are intelligent. Don’t really dumb entitled docs here ! There is a high possibility that many smart people chose to do something else other than medicine. So you and your supporters should understand every non-doc isn’t working for minimum wage in a supermarket!
£100k is a lot of money. You knew from day 1 that NHS is not a money making organisation. You cannot join a charity and expect ibank salaries!

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for your information

Mental capacity to make a decision regarding x, y or z is time and decision specific

i said that people could not understand the specific issue nor could they weigh up the issues - as evidenced by their comments. These are 2 or the 4 areas in which you must be able, to be viewed as having capacity to make that decision ( the decision here is whether consultants need to take industrial action in order to ensure consultants can continue to work in the nhs and staff the vacant posts)

for some reason you have rambled on about intellectual capacity? Do you mean IQ? I’ve no idea why you’re brought this up really.

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WeAreBorg · 03/02/2023 07:52

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:46

It you are in a life and death situation, I hope you still won’t be as stupid and racist to choose not to be operated on by a brown person.
There are people willing to work for less. Skin colour doesn’t automatically mean less skilled. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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I’m brown ffs

Some folks up thread implied overseas clinicians are prepared to work for less so that’s the answer, as opposed to paying our workforce appropriately

You said that doctors should have a spare £40K knocking around to pay for their AA tax bill every year and not complain

Some people claimed that all NHS docs work 3 days and fanny around in their private practice the rest of the time

I was highlighting that I’m glad that none of these people (you included) are the ones operating on me

Coffeewinecake · 03/02/2023 07:55

Jazz12 · 02/02/2023 23:46

It you are in a life and death situation, I hope you still won’t be as stupid and racist to choose not to be operated on by a brown person.
There are people willing to work for less. Skin colour doesn’t automatically mean less skilled. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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You have totally misunderstood the post!!
Along with most of the posts explaining the issue with pensions

Orangepolentacake · 03/02/2023 08:34

Lapland123 · 03/02/2023 07:18

for your information

Mental capacity to make a decision regarding x, y or z is time and decision specific

i said that people could not understand the specific issue nor could they weigh up the issues - as evidenced by their comments. These are 2 or the 4 areas in which you must be able, to be viewed as having capacity to make that decision ( the decision here is whether consultants need to take industrial action in order to ensure consultants can continue to work in the nhs and staff the vacant posts)

for some reason you have rambled on about intellectual capacity? Do you mean IQ? I’ve no idea why you’re brought this up really.

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🤣 can you repeat this back to the op, @Jazz12 ?

Original poster

Lapland123 · 03/02/2023 08:41

Oh and Jazz, the pensions issue is not ‘fair share of taxes’. It’s a COMPLETELY SEPARATE ISSUE CAUSING CONSULTANTS TO LEAVE NHS OR GREATLY REDUCE SESSIONS.

You get that we are also paying income tax like you, don’t you? Don’t you?

You get that we’re not talking about that? Don’t you? Don’t you?

Are you able to read the detailed explanations- or would prefer to spout nonsense?

Try not to confuse this with you and me paying income tax🙄

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CrazyCorgi · 03/02/2023 08:43

Somuchgoo · 31/01/2023 14:21

Do I think consultants are with every penny - absolutely! They've saved the life of my daughter on numerous occasions.

Would I support strike action at this time - sadly no.

Even with a real terms cut, consultants earn enough that are more able to cut expenditure rather than the basic necessities of life, than many.

In the longer term, their business needs to go up to make the job competitive, but with the COLC, I'd rather we use any extra money we can find/raise, on lower paid workers, who might genuinely have to choose between warmth and food.

If we have enough money for both, then brilliant, but let's start with those with the most need.

Why should consultants have to cut expenditure? It takes around 15 years from starting medical school to achieving their CCT and then they can finally apply for a consultant post. They deserve appropriate remuneration for the level of skill and dedication involved. What would be an appropriate salary in your opinion?

Original poster

Lapland123 · 03/02/2023 08:47

And for fools who say you knew from day 1 what salary is blah blah…. Yes day 1 as a consultant I got x. There has been 35% pay erosion since 2010. 35%. Can you get that into your skull or not?

so no, it’s not what I ‘signed up for’, no.

the pension issue is a disgrace and obviously wasn’t an issue when I signed up for this. So no, that was not what I ‘signed up for’ either.

and btw there’s no oath, just as an aside.

it’s just a job, a highly skilled one for which you must spend years training, and yes you expect then to be paid accordingly.

we are not worth 35% less than a decade ago

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Original poster

Lapland123 · 03/02/2023 09:04

My last point is valid for nurses and all HCP who are in this position.

there is no oath, it’s not a vocation. It’s a job for all of us, we train and are skilled in our fields and then are paid for our time by employment, same as any job.

None of us signed up for pay on conditions now which are not comparable to say, 10 years ago. For consultants, 35 % pay erosion is enormously different if you signed up ten years ago. Let alone the pension situation which has finished off many consultants altogether.

The only people ‘signing up’ for the current pay and conditions are the ones ‘signing up’ newly right now- and I don’t see many of those! That’s why there are thousands of vacant posts for nurses, doctors and other HCP.

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C8H10N4O2 · 03/02/2023 09:07

FixTheBone · 31/01/2023 21:12

This is one problem, but not actually the main one. The main problem is far too complex to convey in a single forum post, but....

The main problems are to do with annual allowance and pension growth.

Because of the way Final Salary (now ended) and Career average schemes are calculated, any increase in pensionable pay increases the value of the total pension pot. This is unrelated to the amount payed in in that year , and means that by earning any extra pensionable pay, or having a pay increment, a tax bill can be triggered. This is often in the region of around 10s of thousands of pounds which either needs to be payed up front, or, taken out of the pension pot, as a loan which attracts interest until you retire. This is often unavoidable. A consultant working a standard 10pa contract, with no private or additional work will almost certainly get hit by this when they pay increment, at which point, the only options are to reduce pensionable hours I. E. Work part time, or to leave the pension scheme, which reduces the value of your pension, and may affect the scheme benefits such as death in service and spousal pensions.

The financial hit is unfair, but the worry is as bad. Many professional pensions experts get the calculations wrong, and I've personally spent hundreds of hours trying to understand the issue.

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Final salary pensions are a huge benefit on top of salary in themselves. In effect here you are arguing for special tax perks for senior doctors on top of those final salary benefits.

An alternative would be to scrap final salary pensions in favour of a slightly higher basic salary.

Onnabugeisha · 03/02/2023 09:14

Everyone’s real wages have eroded due to inflation, but consultant doctors on over £100k/Yr are better able to weather such pay erosion than lower paid but just as skilled workers because their salary is in the top 1%.

That makes striking which knowingly will cause more deaths of innocent people for more pay disgusting.

You can petition for your top 1% of pay to be even higher all day long, but you’re hardly in a desperate situation that requires the sacrifice of the lives real human beings.

FixTheBone · 03/02/2023 10:06

C8H10N4O2 · 03/02/2023 09:07

Final salary pensions are a huge benefit on top of salary in themselves. In effect here you are arguing for special tax perks for senior doctors on top of those final salary benefits.

An alternative would be to scrap final salary pensions in favour of a slightly higher basic salary.

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Final salary scheme was scrapped in 2015. Despite it running at a massive surplus, with that money being siphoned back into the treasury.

Since I committed on the path to becoming a surgeon (1999, if you're interested) the terms of my pension scheme have been forcibly changed 3 times, reducing the total value each time, not because the scheme needed protecting, but as a way of making more money for the government. contributions have increased over the same period.

Pay has been essentially frozen since 2008 to pay for the banking bailout, and now for brexit which is costing the same amount every two years as the pandemic has in total, depsite the face that we pissed enough money up the wall on dodgy PPE contracts and test and trace to pay for public sector pay rises until 2038....

FixTheBone · 03/02/2023 10:12

Onnabugeisha · 03/02/2023 09:14

Everyone’s real wages have eroded due to inflation, but consultant doctors on over £100k/Yr are better able to weather such pay erosion than lower paid but just as skilled workers because their salary is in the top 1%.

That makes striking which knowingly will cause more deaths of innocent people for more pay disgusting.

You can petition for your top 1% of pay to be even higher all day long, but you’re hardly in a desperate situation that requires the sacrifice of the lives real human beings.

That's fine, there just won't be any doctors in 20 years.

The gap between nursing and medical salaries is already narrowing.

My consultant starting salary way about £78k which includes on-call and weekend work, at the same time a podiatric surgeon (band 8 nursing job) was advertised for £91k which was four days a week, no out of hours, less complex operating, less responsibility, plus you will have had all of your training paid for on the job unlike a surgeon who has to pay out of their own pocket for all their courses and exams.

Lower down the payscales, physicians associates are already getting paid more than junior doctors on the same rotas, but often lack the autonomy or rights to do similar tasks like prescribing or some procedures.

Some people may be happy with the gradual de-professionalisation of medicine in the UK, personally, I'm not, the shift to protocol driven, dumbed down healthcare is a shame in my mind.

edwinbear · 03/02/2023 10:17

@Lapland123 you had another job lined up in the summer, paying 30% more. Out of interest, if you hate working for the NHS so much, why didn't you take it? It's clearly not for you - was it the pension when it came down to it, because it's obviously not the job, you said yourself you're only in it for the money.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4596388-should-i-stay-or-should-i-go

Onnabugeisha · 03/02/2023 10:29

there just won't be any doctors in 20 years.
Somehow I don’t think all the consultant doctors on £100k/Yr are going to throw in the towel and live on a maximum of £15,408/Yr in benefits. Or pay tons of ££ to retrain into another career field.

The gap between nursing and medical salaries is already narrowing.
Yes because the nursing profession has gone from apprenticeship OJT type of job to a professional degreed job. The gap should narrow.

Im not denying there isn’t some unfairness in the pay system, all I’m saying is that I refuse to support strikes by essential personnel that cause excess deaths of patients. And doctors striking causes deaths. It’s unethical to risk lives for more pay. Everyones terrified of getting sick or injured right now because there may not be a doctor to treat them due to the strikes. That’s why you are getting support- through the use of terror. I can’t support it, it’s not your child or partner dying from you striking, but these are real lives that don’t deserve to be used as sacrificial lambs.

Everanewbie · 03/02/2023 10:45

Hhhhmm. The pay erosion I sympathise with, but I think most people have experienced this to a degree.

The "tax the rich" mantra parroted many is this situation in action. Because people don't understand pensions, they don't realise how much high earners are actually paying.

People should know that you pay an annual allowance charge in a normal defined contribution schemes when you have more than £40,000 added (not getting into carry forward). So any doctor paying an annual allowance charge is paying essentially a tax on the excess of the equivalent pension contribution exceeding £40,000.

Any Doctor paying a lifetime allowance charge is taking pension benefits that exceed £1.071 million.

I agree that this leads to highly qualified individuals leaving the profession and that is a terrible position, especially with the situation in the NHS. But you can't ask for exemptions with a straight face. If doctors, what about headteachers, police chiefs, politicians etc? Why should you be able to increase your pension benefits by £100,000 each year, but when i do it I pay a tax charge?

Ultimately, if I have any to dish out, my sympathies lie with public sector workers on shocking pay, weak or no unions no bargaining power, receiving statutory minimum pension contributions, and probably forfeit these because £25 is needed now to buy food, and they take the attitude that they'll have to worry about retirement if an when they get there.

For what its worth the answer here is either to unburden the pension system for all but this will greatly reducing tax intake for the treasury and walking into a political shit storm about giving rich people tax breaks, or to re-write the NHS scheme rules to allow doctors to continue to work and be able to sacrifice further pension accrual in lieu of salary.

jgw1 · 03/02/2023 10:58

Somehow I don’t think all the consultant doctors on £100k/Yr are going to throw in the towel and live on a maximum of £15,408/Yr in benefits. Or pay tons of ££ to retrain into another career field.

That is not the choice that an aspiring 18year old medical school applicant has.

Those who are applying to medical are amoung the best in their year at school, they could choose to do an Economics degree, an engineering degree, a law degree and have a career that would pay them far more, for less work and significantly less stress.

Onnabugeisha · 03/02/2023 11:12

jgw1 · 03/02/2023 10:58

Somehow I don’t think all the consultant doctors on £100k/Yr are going to throw in the towel and live on a maximum of £15,408/Yr in benefits. Or pay tons of ££ to retrain into another career field.

That is not the choice that an aspiring 18year old medical school applicant has.

Those who are applying to medical are amoung the best in their year at school, they could choose to do an Economics degree, an engineering degree, a law degree and have a career that would pay them far more, for less work and significantly less stress.

I wasn’t talking about 18yr old aspiring medical students, I was taking about current consultant doctors on £100k.

Those who are applying to medical are among the best in their year at school, they could choose to do an Economics degree, an engineering degree, a law degree and have a career that would pay them far more, for less work and significantly less stress.

Among the best at biology and chemistry, but not necessarily with the mathematical ability to be an economist or engineer. Or the legal research, memory and debating ability to become a lawyer.

You are coming across as quite smug and superior. Medicine is one of many skill sets, it’s not the best skill set there is on the planet. There are numerous professions that require the best with the abilities and skills for that profession.