Supporting nhs consultant doctors industrial action

[Lapland123]

I hope this has public support. Consultants have seen the largest pay erosion in public services- now 35 % pay erosion since 2010.

Add the pension debacle, where we are asked for real money now for a theoretical glitch in how pensions are calculated. The ‘real money ‘ bill now can be 6+ months of your take home pay annually. Yes, really.

Vacancies exist in multiple specialties and the day to day job is more and more difficult in the context of vacancies throughout the nhs

I hope we have support for industrial action due to this government’s disgraceful erosion of our pay though we are working harder than ever

@Onnabugeisha I completely agree. OP's lack of ability to debate in a respectful manner and questionable English language skills would certainly rule them out of a legal career.

Maybe not, but they need to be extremely competent in all those disciplines too, as I'm sure OP will confirm, the legal side of medicine is become more and more onerous. I heard of a couple of cases lately where a heart attack patient pursued a claim because their ribs were broken during CPR, and a patient complained that their jeans were destroyed as they were cut off when treating a break.

To become a consultant they need incredible staying power too. Many fall by the wayside.

No one likes smugness but the dedication and excellence needed to reach this level is incredible.

Thats not legal competence to the extent of a lawyer or solicitor, that’s the the same level of legal competence every professional has to have in order to execute their profession within the limits of the law. You take even a tradesman with no degree and they still have to have the legal competence to run a business, comply with consumer protection acts, comply with qualifications and licensing laws, comply with health and safety laws, and have professional indemnity against such customer lawsuits that might arise.

Yes, it takes dedication and competence to reach the level of a consultant doctor, but that doesn’t mean the consultant doctor could have become a top barrister, or a top unmanned spacecraft pilot able to land a robot on a comet, or design new aeroplanes, or be an economist for the IMF, or be a theoretical physicist, or an air traffic controller, or the leading expert in reading Mayan hieroglyphs. Most professions require dedication and competence to reach a senior level. OP seems to think this only applies to their profession and they are truly “the best”.

Do I think their pay should be increased, yes, but I think that of most professions. I am just firmly against the sacrifice of human lives to strike for more pay. Doctors are abusing their power over our lives by striking. It’s unethical, and nothing will change my mind on that.

I heard of a couple of cases lately where a heart attack patient pursued a claim because their ribs were broken during CPR, and a patient complained that their jeans were destroyed as they were cut off when treating a break.

Besides, the doctor isn’t going represent themself in any court, the NHS legal team of actual experts would be doing that…

Enough consultants have already packed up shop to varying degrees that Government has been consulting on pension changes, so those who are not lacking in capacity have acknowledged a different reality from you.

As for skill sets, even my 20-something paying the additional tax rate would prefer to have their life saved by someone with my skill set than yours or theirs.

I hope it's in some way helpful for you to debate this however the adults in the room will respond differently to you, as they're capable of weighing up the options given that NHS consultant pay is the probably the lowest on the planet for our skill sets. Those with math ability will get that 35% erosion requires over 50% uplift to redress the exploitation that has occurred already. Those with any basic capacity will know that it is not consultants who will lose out if the shift to private work continues, and even money will not buy you the skill set you need privately, the private consultant has to agree to take on your case, and why would they bother taking on complex cases even if you can pay the six/seven figure fees in advance. For avoidance of doubt the consultant portion will be a miniscule fraction of any treatment fee.

THEY HAVE BEEN SCRAPPED!!!

I’m not even a consultant and I’m so frustrated with these comments

the tories have won

Those with any basic capacity will know that it is not consultants who will lose out if the shift to private work continues, and even money will not buy you the skill set you need privately, the private consultant has to agree to take on your case, and why would they bother taking on complex cases even if you can pay the six/seven figure fees in advance.

Surely the consultant will lose out eventually if they are never taking on complex cases - from a deskilling and also interest perspective? Consultants I work with (am dreaded NHS management..) say they find their private work lucrative but boring and enjoy the challenge of the complex cases they see in their NHS practice.

Also a pp said that there would be no doctors left in 20 years time, but potentially with the current pace of developments in AI and robotics there could actually be far fewer doctors needed. If my children decide to show an interest in medicine this is something I would definitely be suggesting they consider.

However, I definitely agree that the pension issue is a big immediate problem and needs sorting.

🙋I've given up 75% of my GP salary to now spend 75% of my time running my own business from home. It's in the medical area but not direct patient care. I make more per hour and am less stressed. There are 35,000 doctors in the FB group 'alternative careers for doctors'. The only thing that GP trainees want to talk about is how to have a portfolio career, where you spend a proportion of your time in GP and the rest doing other things. Yes, people will leave. Many won't leave entirely, but 10 people doing the same as me is the equivalent of 7.5 full-time GPs leaving.

And FFS, how many times does it have to be said - not striking will lead to more deaths through the status quo being perpetuated. Striking will save lives long-term.

It is immensely massively stressful being sued, even if you're insured. Sleepless nights type of stressful.

It is still salary based - ok its career average rather than final but its a huge pension contribution by the employer compared to any standard pension scheme.

Its salary based - ok career average model rather than last-day-at-work model but salary based pensions are gold compared to any money purchase model.

That is why senior doctors hit the tax threshold - the reason is exactly the same as for any other high earner (who also gets extra tax perks on pensions simply for being a high earner). If you want to make the case that doctors should have an increased tax ceiling for pensions then what about other higher paid workers?

Yes, it is, but it’s not only doctors being sued for professional negligence…and let’s not forget that being among the top 1% of earners means they actually have access to justice unlike a person on an average wage.

You cannot possibly know that not striking would lead to more deaths long term than the extra deaths caused by striking. That’s you gambling with others lives. And who gave doctors the right to gamble with human lives? And since when is striking is the only way to change the status quo?

For clarity, the scheme is now a hybrid career average scheme which is still a defined benefit scheme that provides accrual and benefit far and above those in public sector schemes to the extent that annual allowance and lifetime allowance charges become payable.

@maryso
the adults in the room will respond differently to you

We are all adults here, even those of us you are disparagingly implying are not adults.

That'll be because the Tories don't think that people should get legal aid, it doesn't have to, and didn't used to be like that.

Definitely support.

it’s about time this government we’re held to account!

I work in the NHS and know how hard it is to recruit decent consultants.

Agree legal aid should not have been scrapped. But it’s worth pointing out that a salary in the top 1% cushions consultant doctors from the real pay erosion caused by inflation as well as the fallout from any professional negligence, whereas other just as highly skilled professions on lower pay do not have the same advantages.

Since about 2010 when the governement has consistently refused to listen to experts and talk with the representatives of a range of professions.

We don't need to leave our £100k jobs for there to be no doctors in 20 years. Most surgical consultants for example qualify around the age of 40 - in 20 years, almost every qualified consultant will have retired at normal pension age.

Fact is, many, many will have left far sooner and the working conditions get worse. The pensions tax and fixed LTA mean there is a threshold around 58-65yrs where the pension devaluation by inflation actually becomes more than annual earnings, so not worth continuing, as the pension in inflation linked once you start drawing it, whilst the pot isn't.

Which is one of the reasons I chose to stay in the UK and take a salary which is 1/5th of what I could have earned in the US, or 1/3rd of what I could have earned in AUS / NZ.

Sadly that pension has been pillaged 3 times since I qualified.

No, but you can look at the data from the last set of strikes.

The death rate decreased, because no elective work was undertaken.

Now that’s a nasty and disrespectful post
Incorrect on so many levels
You are simply unable to understand the points made

Onnabugeisha

if you are able to read, final salary pension is long gone.
If you can read the detailed explanations already provided, you may gain understanding of the problems

If not, hope you are feeling very healthy, there are many many HCP vacancies