Vegan diet and high oestrogen content for women (and men)

[unsureatthispoint]

I sometimes watch influencers to wind down in the evenings or for the aesthetics and light entertainment. A few young ones (30ish) are vegan and are now doing 'Veganuary', providing recipe ideas, saying what they eat 'in a week' and buying vegan 'on a budget' to help with the cost of living crisis.

Most of the dishes they have seem to be based on tofu, soy sauce or pulses. Shouldn't they be concerned about the amount of oestrogenic foods they consume? For some of them, their male partners seem to have been influenced too and are now long-time vegans. Is so much oestrogen healthy for men? The amount of goitrogenic vegetables like kale, broccoli and cauliflower could be problematic also for the thyroid?

The multitude of expensive supplements they seem to take in order to cover their nutritional needs are also based on pulses which only adds up to the issue IMO.

What do others think?

I thought the fear of harm from phytoestrogens was based on very old research which was largely debunked a few years ago? Also I would be more concerned about hormones in meat, milk, fish etc? Don't know about the veg.

I thought the fear of harm from phytoestrogens was based on very old research which was largely debunked a few years ago?

I don't know, but whenever I have soy milk I can rather quickly feel the negative effect akin to excess oestrogen (headache, moods, etc) Maybe it affects some more than others? But I would be nervous about this, especially if I was a man or for children/boys

I wouldn't be worried. I don't actually think there has ever been a study done on humans which has proven a link between soy consumption and increased oestrogen levels in men or boys (or even in girls/women). And we drink the breast milk of a cow, which surely is more hormone-filled than anything?! (I'm not vegan by the way so no agenda).

Given how soy is such a part of some eastern diets I suspect if there was a problem it would be clear !

Given how soy is such a part of some eastern diets I suspect if there was a problem it would be clear!

But Asians (as in Japan, China) do process some foods differently. This has been proven for caffeine, green tea, etc. They affect people in different ways based on their ethnicity

I'm a vegan on an autoimmune diet and I read mostly Paleo type recipes, it's easier for me to take the meat and eggs out than to adjust vegan recipes, plus many Paleo books have a lot of vegan food in( I don't eat gluten, soya and so much more)
I do try to tell new vegans to watch their soya and wheat intake, plus it can be very high carb.
The soya thing is always directed at vegans, however the majority of grown soya gets fed to animals (which obviously in turn are eaten by humans) plus it is in a huge amount of things vegans don't eat, none vegan biscuits, cakes, sausage rolls etc, so I don't think the average vegan is consuming more soya than the average meat eater, I don't know any vegan that still drinks soya milk.
The goitregenic food debate is not set in stone, I myself have reduced massive goitres whilst eating huge amounts of some of that food group.
Busting the goitrogen myth link

I can tell you my experience of almost 3 years vegan. I never had cyclical breast pain. I was 28 - 30 years old when i was vegan and I noticed my hips and boobs increased in fat.My mood became so bad I looked into whether I had PMDD.
I was eating a soy product daily, anything between 1 to 6 servings a day.
When I dropped the soy out of my diet while not changing anything else my breast pain disappeared and I started losing weight.

I know some people who are fine on soy but I think our bodies don't digest things equally I think there is an ethnic element to our tendency to react with food. For example many Jewish and Asian people have a problem with lactose. Many Asian people have a problem with alcohol metabolism.

Asian diets are not that healthy, some cultures like Japan have a high stomach cancer rate. I think it's from too much salt, pickling and smoking food but don't quote me on this.

There is also an infertility issue with many Asian women and low sperm quality in men. I don't touch soy anymore, even soy sauce I switched to coconut aminos.

I feel my best on animal protein with minimally processed foods. It's wild how on things like primal diet and keto I was so hyper focused, so much energy. hardly any pms symptoms and on veganism I felt so ill.
I would love to be able to be vegan and feel well but it's just not for my body... so I don't say anything bad about it, if others like being vegan more power to them but my stance is not all diets work for all bodies.

I don't see meat eating wrong from a moral point because I see humans as animals and animals in the wild sometimes eat each other but that's another story for another thread.

I'm a vegan on an autoimmune diet and I read mostly Paleo type recipes

This must be incredibly difficult. I try to lean towards Paleo but not super strict and need to be gluten free. The types of recipes they are suggesting would literally wreck my health. I do notice that too much broccoli or goitrogens mess up my thyroid (again, maybe some people are more susceptible than others?)

When I dropped the soy out of my diet while not changing anything else my breast pain disappeared and I started losing weight

Interesting. I looked up out of curiosity the (male) partner on these videos and he used to be quite slim (not sure when he became fully vegan) Over the years he does seem to have put on weight (whether this would have happened irrespective of diet type, I'm not sure)

Why are you concerned? Are you similarly concerned by the possible links to heart disease, certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and Alzheimer's disease from red meat consumption? Or have you looked into the positive health effects from consumption of legumes, vegetables and soya based foods?

If you are really interested, perhaps look at some peer reviewed studies:

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890623820302926

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11880595/

Why are you concerned?

Perhaps I tend to overthink this.

For example, many comment on these boards about the current unexplained trend of feeling non-binary, etc (especially amongst young adults)

Surely 'contagion' and peer pressure have a bearing on this. But what about diet?

And you think eating a vegan diet is causing people to feel non-binary?

Honestly, I’m vegan but don’t eat much soya (I get oat milk/products generally) so (a) being vegan doesn’t have to mean eating soy, if you’re concerned or it doesn’t agree with you and (b) risks with all sorts of diet - plenty of risks with red meat, dairy etc etc. Do you.

So ?

Of course social pressure influence people - remember next time someone suggests how you chose to dress or your insistence on wearing make up or hair dye is socially influenced - or whatever it is you do to fit in

Are you equating the dangers of a vegan diet to that of transgender hormones and surgery ? Really ?

Yes we should understand the risks but equally we shouldn't make up or exaggerate risk

Are you equating the dangers of a vegan diet to that of transgender hormones and surgery?

I'm not suggesting anything as I'm not a scientist and a lot more research needs to be done about this new way of eating adopted by some in the West

Often what's considered 'unexplained' does have an explanation after sufficient analysis is carried out.

But I wouldn't be feeding my DH or teenage boys tons of soya or pulses.

That "concern" was debunked ages ago. Do keep up.

There’s certainly peer pressure from the whole vegan movement at the moment.

I certainly don’t want my son eating large amounts of soya/imitation meat products as offered by school vegetarian menus however eating regular amounts of pulses and legumes in my mind is healthy.

I never knew it's a problem. I'm ethnic Chinese and eat a lot of soy sauce, soy milk and tofu. Hong Kong has higher life expectancy than the UK and my dad seems to be doing ok with his 'high oestrogen' diet.

I had exactly the same experience as @securitee above. Unbearable breast pain when trying to move from dairy to soya. So bad that I was almost crying just trying to walk and being woken up with the pain every time I turned over in bed. I'm back on dairy and avoid soya like the plague now

There is no link between soya and oestrogen.

I have oestrogen sensitive cancers. I am strictly banned from any medication that contains oestrogen, and take other medications to supress any I produce myself

Yet the leading specialist centre in the country actively offers me soya milk in my coffee when I attend, and have published leaflets explaining that there is absolutely no issue with soya, it is a complete myth, and anecdotal reporting from people who have already had the link suggested to them

There is no problem, it is an urban myth

I have been warned by multiple doctors in the Asian country where I currently live (where tofu and soy are traditional foods) about the risk of regularly consuming soy and tofu for the thyroid - it’s regularly emphasised that it needs to be limited for health, especially thyroid health. As you said, some vegetables can affect thyroid health too (cabbage, spinach, broccoli for example - especially uncooked). I am not fond of vegan diets for this reason - it’s sort of uneducated ideas about what is healthy and diet balance (I.e meat = bad, everything else - apparently including highly processed meat replacements - = good).

I never knew it's a problem. I'm ethnic Chinese and eat a lot of soy sauce, soy milk and tofu. Hong Kong has higher life expectancy than the UK and my dad seems to be doing ok with his 'high oestrogen' diet

It seems it affects ethnicities differently

I have been warned by multiple doctors in the Asian country where I currently live (where tofu and soy are traditional foods) about the risk of regularly consuming soy and tofu for the thyroid

That's interesting

I have oestrogen sensitive cancers. I am strictly banned from any medication that contains oestrogen, and take other medications to supress any I produce myself
Yet the leading specialist centre in the country actively offers me soya milk in my coffee when I attend, and have published leaflets explaining that there is absolutely no issue with soya

Dietitians in the UK are advising diabetics to consume a high carb diet, so I'm unsure of what to make of some medical advice ATM