To be at wits end with DS?

[PixieAndProsecco]

This isn't an aibu but I've nowhere else to turn to.

My DS is 12, turning 13 this summer, and I am at my wits end. He is about 5ft3 and built - so not a small child - and this is relevant.

For as long as I can remember he will blow up over the smallest things. By blow up I mean shout, scream, throw things, refuse to do things and so on.
The older he's become the worse it has become - he can become verbally hurtful and aggressive, often 'squaring up' to adults but never getting physical.

He has refused to attend school because his hair won't sit the way he wants and there is nothing I can do. He is too big for me to move, I cannot drag him out the house. If he refuses then he refuses.

His attitude and behaviour to being asked to do things or when he is spoken to about how he speaks to others is disgusting. He shrugs, walks away, rolls his eyes, mimics etc and then eventually storms off.
He lies constantly to family and friends, sneaks food, takes care of nothing (constantly leaving platea and rubbish in his room, not putting clothes away, everything left at his bum).
He can be vile to his grandparents too.

At the weekend he threatened to leave the house because he was told he couldn't go out. I had to move away from the door and he barged out, no phone or jacket, and off he went. He eventually went to my parents house but my heart was in my mouth trying to track him down.

He's moved school recently (less than a month) and I have had 1 email, 1 phone call and a visit all because of his behaviour. He is a bright boy but this is being overlooked constantly.

We take his phone from him, we stop him going out with friends, we "ground" him essentially as a result of his actions and there is no change to his behaviour.

I feel like I'm constantly walking on egg shells. Just now he has tripped the fuse because he "needs" to straighten his hair before bed and then in the morning. His straighteners have stopped working as a result and he's already started the "I'm not going to school" tomorrow nonsense. I got a mouthful of abuse when I told him you don't need to do your hair before bed and in the morning.

We are all so done. The slightest thing and he kicks off ridiculously. We have consequences and they don't work. I am verbally abused every single day. I am scared he will snap one day and physically assault myself or his step-dad. I am scared he will run away from home.

I know that there has been some trauma, especially regarding his dad (not physical or sexual) and this may be resulting in some his behaviour. However this behaviour has also existed long before these issues.

We've told school but he isn't engaging with them.
We've approached the GP and they've just said it's not an issue.
At his choice he has no contact with his own dad.

I don't know what to do anymore. I'm convinced there is more to it than just being a horrible person but there is nowhere to go, no one to help.

I already know that tomorrow morning it's going to be awful and I can't face it.

Hi OP

My 11yo has recently had an autism diagnosis, and he has some strong demand-avoidant traits. Although he's not violent or physically aggressive a lot of the feeling of the reactions to situations is the same.

The wait for the assessment was years, it's so frustrating. In the meantime we haven't really had any support and had other people - like on this thread - suggest we were imagining things or that it was a parenting issue.

We had also had consistent boundaries, and a stable home life, and the more we tried to be firm about boundaries or tried any kind of rewards/punishments the worse things got. We are currently working on reducing demands and anxiety, building his self-esteem up, and hopefully teaching some problem solving skills.

Since getting the diagnosis I have found out that some local organisations offer advice and support to parents while you are on the waiting list. The best for us has been our local MIND but I think they are England and Wales only. I wonder whether there's anything near you. It's been a big relief to get advice and hear experiences that are actually relevant to our situation.

I think as well it's a tricky stage with social development and hormones so hopefully it will get easier again at some point rather than forever getting worse!

I definitely agree about the Explosive Child book - it's worth a read.

I would take the child on a car journey. My 11 year old son for some reason only shares problems in the car.

Not RTFT properly, just OP comments and skimmed through some of the rest.

I really think ADHD and autism need to be checked for properly, particularly ADHD.

Have you tried here for getting a private diagnosis/assessment? Have you done any of the free online questionnaires to see if it suggests ADHD or autism as a diagnosis?

It may well be that neither apply, but from the behaviour you're describing, it really sounds as if your DS needs to be properly checked for both. Without wanting to jump to an armchair diagnosis, it was my immediate thoughts reading your descriptions.

CAMHS isn't fit for purpose, especially when it comes to ASD and ADHD, and GPs often just aren't properly trained to spot it. Unfortunately.

I have two DC, both diagnosed, and I am autistic/ADHD myself. Diagnosis is so, so important in many cases.

You shouldn't have to go private but it does sound as if it's your best option.

You are pretty well describing my son as he was at your child's age.

Agree with PPs re. the explosive child.

Whether it is PDA or not he is displaying signs of demand avoidance that would be consistent with an ASD diagnosis.

Try very very low demand. If he is already refusing school and getting into trouble when there then ask school for more support. You can also make a request for an needs assessment.

Try asking him why he can't do things at the moment, give managed choices if possible. e.g. would you like to do this now or later? So the thing gets done at a time he is in control of. The more he feels in control the less he will be anxious and the more compliant he will be. This is the same whether the is NT or not.

Pick your battles. If he needs to straighten his hair first then he gets to do that.

The good news is that things can improve. My child was pretty violent a few years ago because he was in constant fight or flight mode, several broken TVs, holes in walls etc. But now he is 16 his anxiety is under control we have a great relationship and the violence is behind him. It has been years of work to get here but don't listen to anyone who says it is just a 'bad kid'. Don't give up on him.

Does he care about anything?

through the worst of my daughter’s behaviour she cared about her job and getting there on time and about her time on her phone (which we already limited).

That meant that when she was abusive and rude and obstructive we could turn off her ability to access the Internet, WhatsApp etc and would refuse to take her to work. That meant she had to leave earlier to catch the bus. As well as cutting off her internet access there were a few times we went to work and took the remotes with us 😀.

i also tried hard to separate the horrible behaviour from normal teen behaviour and tried to make her realise how loved she was. Alongside the harsh penalties for verbal abuse I tried to “over meet” her day to day needs. If she needed special moisturiser and lip balm from dry skin (on roaccutane) I’d get it promptly, I made sure her clothes were clean, that her new school stationery was sorted before she needed to ask, stuff like that. I wanted her to realise I cared about her needs but also wouldn’t respond to abuse.

We’re not through it yet, she’s still pretty difficult. Today She’s yelled at her younger siblings for being noisy, refused to eat with them, acted like my husband’s sporting gear will blind her by their hideousness 😀.

However, she’s also gone swimming at 5am, done homework at home and I’ve just dropped her to boxing which is a very young adult male environment, and she’s coping well with this. (There are a few women, who seem pleasant and only one other teen, a boy).

6 months ago I would have taken her swimming, she would have texted after I dropped her off to be picked up and then again, multiple times, after morning training wanting to avoid school. By the end of the day she’d have shouted when she got in the car, shouted at everyone at home and sworn and carried on.

I hope things get better, I also had nights where I was too wound up and upset to sleep

Sounds like you need tough love if he wont engage with anything. I'd take his phone off him and say once you've been really good for 1 week and been to school and not been horrible to us then you can have it back. Everytime you kick off the week restarts. There's no way the gp would just 'turn you away' you need to demand an appointment; clearly this mostly goes back to whatever the issue is with his dad.

Only time for a quick reply, haven't read all the posts so sorry if this is a repetition.
Read up around sensory issues, demand avoidance, autism and pda.
I speak from
Experience.

Hi OP, this sounds so difficult. Have you contacted Youth Scotland? I have worked for a different service and they were very much engaged with teens showing this sort of behaviour. In my experience a good youth worker will be able to get your ds engaged (in my area we have music studios, engineering projects, etc) and will get him talking.

Please don't do this. It will likely escalate the behaviour.

Punishments like this really don't work for anxiety driven demand avoidance.

You need a multi disciplinary for a full autism assessment rather than a single person unfortunately.

Lots and lots of them do online though, personally we travelled to my son’s mental health assessment (thought he would engage better) and he has follow ups online, everything is available virtually if you can’t travel.

He can be refered to camhs/paeds if he is diagnosed and you want them to take over prescribing.

How do you know he has anxiety driven demand avoidance?! He's never been seen or checked by a GP or any other health professional. This is why teens are running riot, literally out there killing each other because parents are too concerned about their supposed mental health to take their phones off them 🙄

I'm talking from first hand experience. Are you?

Do you want to put this family further into crisis whilst they try to work out what is going on for their child who is already displaying violence in the home?

Thanks for that brilliant insight.
He has consequences. His phone is removed from his regularly. I'm not scared to do it. My son also isn't a killer.

For those that have sought out private assessments how can you be sure of a reputable place?
Professionally every child I've known to have a diagnosis has been referred through Ed Psych but waiting lists are too long and he isn't "severe" enough, especially not at school, to warrant being high up the list at the moment.

To the posters who mentioned MIND and Youth Scotland thank you, I'll have a look.

And to the poster who didn't believe the GP would turn me away - I've had three appointments. One appointment ended when I said there were no issues at school (which there wasn't at that point), one appointment ended with a "CAMHs won't see him" and one appointment ended with a referral to a programme designed to help children overcome grief.

Clearly I was not saying he is a killer 🙄 but lack of discipline has shown statistically an increase in violence in teens. I believe jumping straight to mental health shows that sometimes more discipline is needed. In the case of the gp just sit there and cry, tell them how it's effecting you and your mental health and I can't see them refusing to refer? But then maybe I'm a bit more demanding.
For the poster that says they have first hand experience of anxiety demand avoidance etc ' that's your own experience of your child- that doesn't mean to say you're right about this child.

For the poster that says they have first hand experience of anxiety demand avoidance etc ' that's your own experience of your child- that doesn't mean to say you're right about this child.

I'm not the only person on this thread who has said that this looks like demand avoidance or that there could be neurodiversity.

Books like the Explosive Child explain clearly why normal 'discipline' is the opposite of what is appropriate for children who behave in these ways.

Taking away the phone a child who runs and avoids school and is violent in the home isn't going to solve the reasons they display these behaviours.

OP has said that there is trauma involved and that she believes there is something more going on. I believe her.

hair wise has he had chemical tx, straighteners etc to help him style it? If getting his hair “right” is such a massive frustration, would sorting this aspect help?

As I've said repeatedly, there are consequences.
Not being allowed out, events cancelled, no phone/iPad/TV and so on. What else do you suggest? Because none of these things have made an impact. None.

As for not being demanding enough - I've sat with his pupil support teacher and head of year at both high schools. I've spoken to our own Ed Psych to get her views. I've attended the GP. I've undertaken training on Youth Mental Health. I've researched and read. As part of my job I've looked at the Solihull Apprpach, the nurture principles, ACEs and Childhood Trauma, specific training for ASD and the list goes on. I adopt this in my daily life.
Nothing has helped.

if the child is assessed and has no neurological or mental health needs and it is a lack of discipline then the OP and school would have a clearer understanding of what they need in order to assist them to get on the right path.

Pushing a neurodiverse child into strict discipline will send them further into crisis. It simply doesn’t work. You can’t punish that type of behaviour out of a neurodiverse child.

He uses his straighteners to curl his hair and the mess it up.
We got him straighteners to do this - along with texture sprays, dusts, clays and wax; hairspray; heat protectant etc. I taught him how to curl his hair.

He asked about a perm and I said I'd book him in - He refused.
He asked how to straighten his hair flat and I showed him - He just refuses to do it.

He doesn't look after property - dropping the straighteners and getting the cords all twisted. This has caused them to break.
He has also ruined the plates as he is putting so much product in to his hair and then heat styling. This is also damaging his hair. I've tried to explain this but, as always, I'm wrong and can fuck off/get to hell/go away.

It's so hard to advise from afar but I might have agreed with posters saying tough love is the way to go until I had dc2. He is being assessed for PDA and normal textbook parenting does. not. work.

OP have you tried low demand parenting? I feel like you've got nothing to lose. See the PDA society website for how to do this.

Also, you're doing great, don't give up. Assessment is key I think.

@PixieAndProsecco - I added a link above to an ADHD centre who do child assessments in Scotland, but thinking about it, you probably need a multi-disciplinary team who can assess for autism (and its variants such as PDA) too.

You can get an assessment from an Ed Psych privately - this might be a good starting point. Among our SEN community, lots of parents have found private Ed Psychs to be really helpful. Ed Psychs employed by the LA can sometimes be pressured one way or the other by local politics, so a private one can often yield better results anyway.

The Ed Psych would probably also be able to recommend a private provider to carry out a full assessment, if they think it's warranted.

Have you done the online free questionnaires for ASD and ADHD for your DS?

The more you write the more I think ADHD and anxiety.

You defo need a diagnosis and I would for sure reach out to MIND for a steer on this.

The big game changer for my friend and her DD is for her to understand how to communicate with her. Everything has to be a choice and everything has to be a now or not now. So no forward planning really and little care for consequences.

rather than removing privileges like the phone which don’t seem to be working, try limiting the time on the device. And make it short and snappy.

emotion coaching. He needs a lot of this with you- when he shouts and swears grey rock him. Then afterwards…..

I could see you were so angry and frustrated. You swore and that tells me your anger must be high. Was it at a 5 or 6? Get him to scale his emotions with you. It takes TIME. you’re effectively reprogramming him. Keep doing it. And he will get it.

does he like dragons Den- the podcast diary of a ceo with Simon Bartlet is fantastic and his recent interview with steve peters is so good- about the chimp paradox. Give it a listen.

Interesting.

As an older child and teen, I started many clubs that I thought I'd like and then quit because I lost interest. So many. I also had huge meltdowns about my appearance. I then started with the anger and obstinance towards parents and got in trouble at school. Then came the mood swings and impulsive behaviour/dangerous behaviour. Went to CAHMS etc.

I'm not saying this is the case for your DS, but for me I ended up being diagnosed with borderline personality disorder at 18 after a tumultuous teenagehood.

The joining clubs and then giving them up, just to try another and another, I realised during therapy was because I was struggling with a sense of identity which is a classic issue for those with BPD. I was trying to find my passion, something I could define myself by, something that made me "me" and kept coming up short. Nothing felt right or fit. Tbh, I am still the same as an adult with hobbies - start a hobby, do it passionately for a few months and then don't do it again for ages, might go back to it for a couple months again them forget it for a year again.

Again, the appearance thing, was because my internal identity was chaos and so "undefined" to me that my external identity (appearance, style) became all-encompassing. I had to have my hair a certain way, certain clothes, or else I was even less of a person than I already was. I had no confidence in myself, no self-esteem.
I was ugly in my mind, so of course I need my hair a certain way to look better or I need the makeup. Go to school without my eyeliner? But then I'm ugly and also not "me". My natural self was so hideous to me.

Identity crises is a massive part of teenagehood but for those with "emerging" BPD it's 100x worse.

Because my mood changed so intensely, cycling rapidly throughout the day, I would often rage and trash my room and shout and scream at my family, and then emerge after I'd calmed down and "act like nothing had happened"... Because I was now completely fine and calm and relatively happy, even though an hour ago I'd been a complete state. I couldn't get my head around how everyone else in the house was still angry with me or sad because my emotions didn't last that long. My emotions were intense and short-lived.

And yes, I did the whole running away thing too because I knew they couldn't physically stop me and if they took my phone? Fine, I'll go out anyway and worry you all, because I couldn't let them "win" and feel like they could control me.

Just something to consider as you move forward because his behaviour certainly reminds me of my teen self.

You can't be diagnoses with it until 18, and other diagnoses should be looked at first. I had been going to CAHMS from age 11-17 and it wasn't until 17 and doing my own research, that I went to them and said "look, I think I might have traits of BPD" and they said well actually, they agreed with me, but they could only say I had "possibly emerging bpd" as it's adult services that diagnose it.

I have training in child mental health and have worked psychotherapeutically in a centre for boys with severe ASD that resulted in violent behaviours.

OP, my instinct (and only that - this is not, of course, a professional opinion) is that you are doing amazingly well in hugely difficult circumstances, and that this will come right in the end. Continue to show consistency, and remember (I'm sure you do this) to separate out the 'loving him' from the 'strongly disliking the behaviour' - I'm certain you tell him this as you're doing everything else right!

Hang on in there, by all means continuing to seek support, but have faith in yourself: you're doing a great job.

Personally I would leave the diagnosing to an absolute last resort.

Get out of my life but first take me and Alice into town is an excellent book.

Re the straighteners. When he ruins them, tell him you're not buying him any more and talk to him about this. He's 13. Some 13 boys literally don't know their arse from their elbow.