So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

Because they can clearly handle the mental load, whatever that entails.
Although Dp looks at my job and rolls his eyes. He says office politics is boring and not a situation he'd be happy working in. He calls it oppressively tiring.
So my role and working environment he wouldn't be able to handle.

Managing the home isn't even on our radar as a point of stress. I go back to my point of over-scheduling, and ridiculous expectations, especially around the home and children.

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/160868525X/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=breakin+up+with+busy+yvonne+tally&ie=UTF8&sr=8-1-fkmr0&linkCode=gg2&linkId=a1f643507b06256ec701b318dcc16d64&tag=theminwor01-20

People need to read this.

I’ll never understand why the women who manage to find the balance end up feeling like the women who can’t are a bit shit, instead of having a realisation that we’re all different.

I don’t struggle with the mental load because I need a book to teach me how to do it, I struggle because supporting disabled children is relentless. Others struggle for different reasons. The whole point of the thread is the divide between men and women in the home, where it’s typical for women to do the lion’s share.

I’m ecstatic for you that you’re doing so well, with your 2 stepchildren who are with you 50/50. But you are not every woman.

Because you need to find the balance. If you cannot, you need to ask yourself why and do something about it. It may be a personal preference. In our home, DP vacs the lounge carpet twice a day, once before we go to work and once when he gets home. He hates my dog, he says it leaves a mess, we used to bicker about it. The dog exacerbates his need for tidiness.
I joke about his tidiness to my family and friends, I think he's bonkers.
I find his girls untidy, I think they should do more at the home, and have a stricter routine, and he's more relaxed. We bickered about it for nearly a yr. We've both had to let it go.
Otherwise, it would've destroyed the relationship.
We're both from different countries, and although we both have very, very strict upbringings he, rejected that. I'm still very attached to that way of life, it's helped me progress in my career, and I have the drive to enjoy my work and routine.
He's a lot more chilled.
In fact, he finds my culture too busy and hectic. We have a family holiday coming up, I know my cousin is very, very busy, she's already planning trips, sigh seeing, dp opts out and will lie on a bed tanning and join in when he wants to. I know he gets on with on my family and friends but when he's had enough he says.
I've had to accept this and not become offended.

His favorite saying is,' I'm chilling'.😂

The whole point of the thread is the divide between men and women in the home, where it’s typical for women to do the lion’s share

The whole point seems to be to moan about men instead of looking inwards, whilst claiming women are the superior sex. Yet I've still to read a genuine solution, other than to stay single.

Unfortunately you're always going to read the extreme cases on MN and noone is really interested in listening to people who are in solid relationships. So it seems, in an echo chamber, that 99% of men do nothing whatsoever but the reality is quite a bit different. Anecdotally, my circle is varied and whilst some friends have husbands who do little, don't work themselves, so have agreed to do it all. More balanced relationships exist where both work and share the chores, unsurprisingly. But then I know a fair amount of SAHD's who do a lot and my OH WFH so does more than I nowadays.

Some interesting reading and some positive research/advice.

www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/how-to-achieve-an-equal-split-of-household-chores-kate-mangino

@PrincessConstance

Saying both of you are amazing at running the home doesn't answer the question of why 1 person would have a comparative advantage.

Continuing to yak on about how unstressful it is, is bizarre at this point

@SamanthaCaine

Managing to find just 40 men who did an equal share is hardly positive

I'm rather tired of the didn't you not know he was an abusive lazy twat pre children responsibility and marathon snagging.
No? Well you are an idiot to put up with it now you have had to give up your career due to extortionate child care or you carry on working knackered because you have no choice but to keep going.

As an economist, I must say I've been quite enjoying the bringing of comparative advantage into the discussion. I'd add two more things. The definition of comparative advantage is specialising according to your opportunity cost (what you give up when you make a certain choice). Most women who are in long term relationships are with men older than they are. So what they give up when taking on the majority share of care for the children is less in terms of pay, promotion, pension etc because they're younger and have less of those things. But then that compounds over time.

The other thing about comparative advantage is it changes over time. It's not fixed. When you take on the household/DC admin of course you get better at it. And gradually you have less to trade off because you've already got this large additional unpaid task.

Another aspect that massively compounds the problem is having one or more DC with SEN or disability. Unless you've experienced the incredible mess that is the "SEN support system" in this country I think it's hard to believe just how time consuming it is to navigate. The local authorities actively break the law and no-one much seems to care. It is noticeable in the SEN groups I'm in how many of the parents there are single mums. They have literally been left holding the baby.

I would like to see a lot more discussion of the structural and social and financial issues that underly this rather than constant blaming of individual decision making. So this thread is good.

You don't think advice on actually talking is positive? It wasn't just the sample size but this is reflected in other studies where it's clear that women aren't doing 100% of stuff.

Most women who are in long term relationships are with men older than they are.

Not really

The average age gap in UK relationships is between 1 to 3 years

Hardly big enough to have a massive impact on careers or pay.

Borne out by the fact pre kids there is no gender wage gap

@SamanthaCaine

I guess. Although to me it read as basically saying it was women's job to make sure their ohs did their share rather than focusing on why men think its not.

I also don't think anyone has claimed all women do 100 % of stuff

Just that most women do the majority and certainly the majority of the essentials

Which the article backed up

Damn lies and statistics there, though @Botw1

There is no gender pay gap within professions, but there is disparity between professions, and the choices people make about which professions to pursue is very strongly influenced by future opportunities for progression, terms and conditions as well as current pay.

A great many women who enter the teaching profession, for example, do so explicitly in the belief that it is more compatible with their ideal of family life - in many cases before they've even met the man they eventually breed with. Same goes for teaching assistants - there's some hugely well qualified people working those jobs simply because if fits so well around childcare which is otherwise too costly and difficult to arrange.

Well duh

It's hardly surprising that our sexist society promotes sexist choices

Not really relevant to the point being made

It's not sexist if the choice is genuinely a free one - regardless of whether it is promoted heavily or not.

Not everything is a conspiracy by the patriarchy. Some women may genuinely prefer to be nursery teachers than account executives. What's wrong with that?

It doesn't have to be a massive age gap to have a significant effect when multiplied across millions of relationships. A marginal one is enough, particularly with differences that compound over time. That's what I meant by it being useful to think about this structurally. I agree though that the gender pay gap is now more of a motherhood pay penalty. There's research isn't there to show men are more likely to be promoted and to receive pay rises after they become dads?

I'm not bitter about this. I got promoted and received a pay rise after having DC and my relationship (after a lot of hard work) is relatively equal, but that doesn't mean I can't see that's not the typical experience in the UK.

Free choices don't exist but I never said there was anything wrong with a woman (or a man) choosing to be a nursery teacher rather than an account executive

On an individual basis

There's loads wrong with our sexist society however

www.gov.uk/government/publications/gender-equality-at-work-research-on-the-barriers-to-womens-progression here's the link to the research.

@Phineyj

Thats an odd last statement.

I obviously can see the same. I just disagree that age gaps are a significant factor in comparison to sexist attitudes around parenting

Add the burden of cognitive labour – remembering birthdays, organising play dates.
I know in our house Dp doesn't really join in with the birthdays etc, he thinks it's cobblers. Play dates, he'll either arrange in the playground or via Whats app. Pick the other kids up and drop them off. Again if he hasn't the time in his schedule he doesn't force it. He'll say no. This is about priorities and expectations.
When he arranges a night out it takes him a text or two. When I arrange a night out it's very detailed and may take weeks to plan.

If both partners are truly doing half the work in the home, especially in homes with kids, you’re both going to fall into bed at night exhausted, you’re both going to feel like you’re doing 55% of the load. I think that’s normal.
Why should the other be equally as tired? Strange concept, competitive tiredness.

@Botw1
Do you understand a person's individual makeup and preferences will determine whether the mental load is stressful? This is why I said if you cannot manage the home, you will NOT manage a big job.

@PrincessConstance

Yes. I've said the same (minus the bullshit about big jobs)

Not sure what that has to do with the thread though

It’s not sexist if the choice is genuinely a free one - regardless of whether it is promoted heavily or not.

Not everything is a conspiracy by the patriarchy. Some women may genuinely prefer to be nursery teachers than account executives. What's wrong with that?

Of course there’s nothing wrong with being a nursery teacher but this choice isn’t made in a vacuum.

The economics of pay in the care professions are In themselves reflective of sex bias. It’s no accident that these vitally important jobs are paid so little. There are many factors behind this and I would be interested to hear @Phineyj’s take but I am sure that in part it’s because historically these jobs were done by women who were not the main household breadwinner.

Theres also the question of what represents a genuinely “free” choice. I’m sure many women do genuinely want to do these jobs but it’s also connected to family expectations: if your family discourages you from pursuing a highly paid career it’s unlikely to be the case that you can imagine yourself doing it. It’s also unlikely that your family would give you the financial support you need or the guidance which would help you exceed.

Then once you are married (to a wealthier man) with children the “I didn’t make sense for me to work” argument comes into play and any imperative to work harder and get paid more slowly gets eroded. You lose financial power and then you lose agency over own life.

It’s not a “conspiracy” by the patriarchy. No one is plotting to trap women as a class in an economically weaker situation. But the current social structure massively benefits men at the expense of women. I don’t think anyone is asking men to become radical feminists and seek to overthrow the patriarchy but many women just want acknowledgment from men that we are still operating at a considerable structural disadvantage.

You're making wild assertions that:
Home life issues are a barrier to careers or female advancement.
If only the man weren't around, or if this patriarchy would just disappear my life would be so much better. If Dp shared my mental load then I could be a finance director of insert any top 100 FTSE company.
I call bullshit.
Most people are happy to make choices that suit themselves, everyone isn't suited to careers or big jobs.

I find it disappointing that people fight so hard to centre the sex of the partners as not just deterministic, but decisive, in driving these inequalities.

For me it is so clear and obvious that it is the nature of the work, rather than the sex of the person doing it, that is a driver of mental load and it is the capability and mindset of the individual, not their sex, that is a predictor of how much they will labour under that mental load.

And it does link back to the concept of "good enough". Like that article says, some tasks are like projects. They have an obvious, natural, end. Fixing a broken stairgate. Painting a room. Mowing the lawn. There is immense satisfaction to be had in completing them, and a visible and palpable moment when it is ok to crack open a beer and put your feet up. Other tasks never seem to end and require that the person doing it also sets the standard for what is good enough - and I think the stressful part of mental load is because these standards are ones that people feel may be judged by others (as well as themselves). Cleaning and tidying. Helping a child with their homework. Choosing the right outfit for World Book Day. And here I do think there are possibly some evolutionary factors that might explain why men seem to be more able to load-shed and say "this is good enough for today". Their assessments tend to be based more on their capacity to physically continue to do that work - whereas a woman making that assessment is perhaps more likely to be influenced by how they think others ("the village") might feel about them - a worry that doesn't take their capacity to do more work into account. This is also a structural issue, just as much as the economy. And this thread ... and MN in general ... provides ample evidence of just that. Externalising it and laying the blame for everything at the foot of men is spectacularly missing this point.

@PrincessConstance

Im not making any wild assertations.

You are. I haven't said any of the things you're talking about. Your whole post is one big strawman

And is still entirely devoid of any point relevant to the actual thread

@Mark19735

Claims to be so disappointed that people are focused on how sex impacts the subject

Wanders into blatant sexism and contradicts himself entirely

🤣