So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

Its an interesting concept but I guess my views are somewhat tainted by what I witnessed in various flatshares in my 20s where the women demonstrated that they could be just as lazy, messy, selfish and entitled as some of my male flatmates when it came to various chores and pulling their weight. And the idea that women by default will just sit down and sensibly sort out any disputes in a calm and respectful manner is laughable. Just because women are not as violent as men it does not automatically mean they will not be complete arses to each other when disputes arise. The Mumsnet forums would collapse overnight if women were all super nice to each other all the time.

@DanseAvecLesLoup

Its an interesting concept but I guess my views are somewhat tainted by what I witnessed in various flatshares in my 20s where the women demonstrated that they could be just as lazy, messy, selfish and entitled as some of my male flatmates when it came to various chores and pulling their weight. And the idea that women by default will just sit down and sensibly sort out any disputes in a calm and respectful manner is laughable.

Yeah I totally agree and to reiterate I don't think women are more likely to create a female-driven utopia just because they don't have male hormones.

Also I don't think we're necessarily talking about living with other women.

But the critical problem with marriage and cohabitation is that they link a financial contract with an emotional/sexual commitment and it's an incredibly blunt instrument. You're basically seeking to yoke two people together in what is theoretically a lifelong financial partnership purely on the basis that they wanted to shag each other and had children as a result (I know in theory there's more to it than that etc but this is the brass tacks).

If you take emotion/romance out of the business of creating a support network for you and your children but create a loose financial and support sharing agreement you are likely to be able to be more dispassionate about any differences of opinion which do arise and if someone isn't their pulling their weight you can part ways reasonably amicably without it involving a huge amount of money and legal fandangle.

If you want to get a joint mortgage with a female friend that's all fine and if you part ways there will be some disruption but without the massive recriminations involved with a divorce. Or not even live together but just have a mutual support/childcare agreement.

It takes a village etc and everyone needs a bit of support but in my personal opinion creating a legally binding contract with someone to share all finances for life based on sex and shared children is a crazy way to run your life. I know most people disagree with this though...

Well actually studies have shown that women are traditionally inclined towards lesbianism and only with the advent of patriarchal colonialist attitudes did we see a conditioning towards heterosexual monogamy. Breaking that conditioning would essentially be breaking the stranglehold that men have over our sexuality, which is ultimately the final stage of feminism.

@SandraCumin

What a load of shit

😂😂

What 'studies' are these?

Hence my question about how will a 'female only family cluster' organise themselves when one or more of them has different priorities be it career progression or say sporting goals (i.e something that is a time rich commitment)? You also did not answer what you do with a female member of the commune who is lazy or does not pull their weight? Your utopian premise is based on all women in the commune being roughly equal in terms of hours they work and their availability to equally contribute domestically to the household/commune.

I didn't answer your question because I have no idea why you have directed it at me. I have mot suggested women should live in communes or female-only groups. I'm quite happy as a single woman raising my children alone, thanks. So the only person that needs to "pull their weight" is me.

@SandraCumin

Well actually studies have shown that women are traditionally inclined towards lesbianism and only with the advent of patriarchal colonialist attitudes did we see a conditioning towards heterosexual monogamy.

Would be interested to see those studies...

Even if that were true (and I am very sceptical), I don't think its really the point.

I agree with @DanseAvecLesLoup that it's a myth that women will innately live harmoniously without men. They may not be at risk of sexual violence or exploitation but women can still abuse and neglect other women.

The goal should be for women to be financially self-sufficient and with decent support networks that are not based on sexual or romantic entanglements of any kind. Swapping an onerous financial contract based on heterosexual sex to one based on lesbian sex is a bit out of the frying pan, into the fire, surely?

I agree with your broad point that it's a good idea for women to reduce financial reliance on men as far as possible but in a world where a majority of women identify as heterosexual lesbianism for all isn't a viable end goal for feminism.

@Winterday1991

I am speaking as a man who has a fairly even relationship with my partner when it comes to splitting chores (though she does the washing up, I do the cooking - I hate washing up!)

I'd politely ask why would men do things unless they have to? Why would ANYONE unless they have to?

The reason is because men can tolerate not doing things much longer than women can (from my experience) and rather than holding them to account, women just do the work. If I know my partner is doing all the work, why would I bother myself and get extra stressed?

Now I am NOT saying that this is morally right. Is it self-centred and showing a lack of respect? Sure. And at the same time the fact remains...people often don't want to do what they can get away with not doing.

For example, I can EASILY live in a dump. Plates piled up in the sink? Not a problem! Grime on the bath? Easy! Dust all over the carpet? Piece of cake! Thankfully my wife is the same so we just end up blitzing the house every so often!

The question I have is, what incentive do some men (or anyone who is lazy) have to do the chores? Being a "good partner" isn't enough. We have to create a situation where men want to do things rather than feel obliged to do things. Otherwise it will never last. From a behaviouralist perspective this is all about reinforcement. Nobody goes to work for the fun of it (we aren't a charity after wall, we go to get paid). It is the same premise here.

BTW I find that there is a tendency to demonise "men" as a collective. We aren't all horrific lay-abouts and I believe it is less about "men" and more about individuals who can get away with it.

@SandraCumin

"Well actually studies have shown that women are traditionally inclined towards lesbianism and only with the advent of patriarchal colonialist attitudes did we see a conditioning towards heterosexual monogamy."

That ignores the level of domestic abuse in lesbian (and gay) relationships. There is a fair amount of data on woman on woman domestic abuse - particularly psychological.

I want to see these studies too. Evolutionarily we need to procreate, so this idea that it is conditioning to be in a heterosexual and monogamous relationship is hugely disingenuous. From a biological perspective it is simply untrue. And I say that as a bisexual man.

@Burgoo

Except people do go to work for the fun of it.

Volunteering is a thing

I have zero interest in pretending that men as a species are biologically wired to be able to tolerate mess or that women are responsible for having to coax them into doing their share

Fuck that

Who wants to have kids with a man who has to be persuaded to care for them?!

@Burgoo

BTW I find that there is a tendency to demonise "men" as a collective. We aren't all horrific lay-abouts and I believe it is less about "men" and more about individuals who can get away with it.

This is a fair point and actually it does undermine feminist argument to apply this to all men. Try "patriarchy". It's not (all) individual men, its the way (most) men function in a patriarchal society.

But I disagree profoundly with you on the idea that it's a woman's job to incentivise a man to do all this stuff. It all comes back to what do we (women) get out of this?

What is the upside for a woman in being with a man who has to be bullied, nagged, cajoled or otherwise "incentivised" to wash the dishes or do the ironing. I don't want to do all this myself but I'd far rather do it myself than do it on behalf of a healthy adult male who could be doing some of it. There is literally no point to having such a man around.

I'd politely ask why would men do things unless they have to? Why would ANYONE unless they have to?

The reason is because men can tolerate not doing things much longer than women can (from my experience) and rather than holding them to account, women just do the work. If I know my partner is doing all the work, why would I bother myself and get extra stressed?

Ummmm... on an individual basis presumably because they aren't utterly selfish and actually care about the wellbeing of the other people in their family.

On a wider basis, because an increasing proportion of women are shunning cohabiting win men or marriage/ other financial entanglements to them because of the prevalence of exactly the type of selfish attitudes you've just described.

Why would anybody want to live with or be in a relationship with someone so callous that they view other people in such a way and do not actually care about them?

You've rather proved the point that people have been making.

A poster is now trying to convince everyone booking a holiday is a mental load. I'm genuinely lost for words.

Lucky you.
DH took on the whole mental load for our last holiday: comparing hotels and resorts, finding cheap flights, checking dates, currency, activities, covid passports, checking cabin bag measurements, weighing suitcases, the lot.

He was so stressed out by it all he said that he was never, ever going to organise another holiday again.

If you don't understand that being responsible for organising a holiday is a mental load, then you really don't understand the concept at all.

Or you are pretending not to understand because you are putting on a 'I'm cool, I am so laid back' persona.

We have to create a situation where men want to do things rather than feel obliged to do things. Otherwise it will never last. From a behaviouralist perspective this is all about reinforcement. Nobody goes to work for the fun of it (we aren't a charity after wall, we go to get paid). It is the same premise here.

So turn this on its head. We have to create a situation where women want to do things rather than feel obliged to do things. Otherwise it'll never last.

Hence as I said, an increasing number of women now making the very rational drcision not to be involved with a man.

What kind of "pay" do you think men should be getting for doing their own share of the basic tasks of an adult, and who is it you expect to pay them?

It appears that underlying your comments there is misogyny because inherent in the above statements is that somehow men would be doing women a favour by fulfilling their own basic responsibilities to do half of the work involved in maintaining a clean and functioning home if there are two adults living in it. And that women should somehow feel the need to incentivise them to do this? 🤣 No thanks.

The reason we feel we have to do stuff is mostly for the children.
If a couple don't have children, they can be as slobby as they like - or if one has higher standards than the other they can argue over it to their heart's content.

But if children will be affected, it is not fair on them if stuff doesn't get done. The trouble is that the woman often will take on this, and the man doesn't realise, or just doesn't care enough.

This thread has made me realise how horrendous some women and their attitudes are.

Yes the pick me’s really are a lamentable bunch aren’t they?

I sometimes wonder why women marry them in the first place.

Welcome to mumsnet, where feminist hypocrisy thrives and is the man hating capital of the Internet. Imagine if there was a dad's net...

You will see all excuses under the sun on here like he wasn't like this when they married etc, when in reality the guy has always been a coke head scum bag but they wanted to change them.

A load of warning signs are there before but they let their ovaries take over and decide a idiots is an ideal dad.

Jesus wept. We can put someone on the moon but can't manage a family trip to Spain (or wherever).

Some people aren't being 'cool' if they genuinely don't have any issues organising a holiday. You just need to appreciate that it's water off a ducks back for some.

I'm beginning to appreciate the opposite. I find it mystifying but there you go.

Jesus wept. We can put someone on the moon but can't manage a family trip to Spain (or wherever).
Some people aren't being 'cool' if they genuinely don't have any issues organising a holiday. You just need to appreciate that it's water off a ducks back for some.
I'm beginning to appreciate the opposite. I find it mystifying but there you go.

You really don't get it. You may genuinely have no issues organising a holiday - but it still takes organising! So someone has to organise it.

If that 'someone' also has to organise a dozen other things, while their partner does the bare minimum of organising anything, then there is inequality.

Oh I get it. I get that some make such a meal of tasks that they give it a special name like 'mental load'.

Sorry but your OP was about your DH going into overload.

I'm just pointing out the fact that it doesn't affect everyone equally irrespective of whether you do everything or not.

I guess you could say that mental load is a condition that not everyone suffers from. I get the concept, just not the gravitas.

Really.
I suppose we all have different tolerance levels for stress or what we perceive as stressful.
Dp usually books the hols-he starts browsing-then he'll narrow it down with input from me-then he books it-pays for it buys seats-inputs passport details.
Then he creates a physical folder-prints all the documents out.
Then it's ready.
Dates, he'll send me a link, yes or no then he just books it.

I'll text him, we need handwash and shower gel and he'll text back I know, I've got it. Etc.
I suppose he's a fully functioning adult.
We're both organized, I'm definitely a micro-manager, spreadsheets, calendars, etc, and he just stores all the info in his head. If there is a clash in schedules, he just lets something go. Yesterday was a prime example, he had a long-standing important meeting scheduled for the afternoon, and I needed him to pick me up from work, a clash, which in rush hr is a 5hr round trip. He moaned and groaned then let the meeting go, and rescheduled.
I feel guilty for not fulfilling all my obligations, he just reschedules and doesn't feel any guilt.

Oh I get it. I get that some make such a meal of tasks that they give it a special name like 'mental load'.
[...]
I guess you could say that mental load is a condition that not everyone suffers from. I get the concept, just not the gravitas.

'Mental load' is not the name given to task that you are making a meal of. It is not about finding a job easy or hard.
It is the equivalent of 'housework' as a label for all the chores that you have to do in the house. Housework is the physical aspect, mental load is the thinking and planning aspect.

It doesn't make sense to say a person 'suffers from housework'. It equally doesn't make sense to say someone 'suffers from mental load'. It is not an ailment.

The concept of mental load becomes important when it is not shared equally. Just like the concept of housework becomes important when it is not shared equally. These words are used as a way to describe the situation and identify the inequality.
If the housework and mental load are shared equally, there is no issue.
The gravitas arises when there is inequality.