So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

Absolutely agree with all of this.

So that man claimed his wife had mental health problems so bad he had to leave the marriage: i.e. you've tried to support your partner through this and get them help but they won't help themselves/ their mental health problems are so bad that living with her was unbearable for him, as an adult. Yet he ran off and left his children living with this apparently mentally unstable adult, alone? Children who then have nobody capable of caring for them adequately, and no option to do a runner.

How is anybody still friends with such an irresponsible person or family still associate with them or anybody could consider such a person as a potential partner in future is beyond me. And yet many people seem to.

Saying that as a society we need to teach women to spot these flags and/or expect more is very different to blaming women for not doing so.

If you read my posts I've said I absolutely support educating girls about this. I do so with my own already and she's 5. Many posts here are blaming women, however.

You can't expect things to change in a vacuum. Denying the reality of how people are brought up, societal expectations etc is completely unhelpful.

Where have I denied reality? I've stated repeatedly that some people clearly make poor decisions and this needs to be addressed.

@MsMarch

How do you propose we start to change things without acknowledgement of the problem?

How likely is it that we can change how children view things if they grow up in households where mum does everything?

Or mostly everything and dad thinks he does an equal share cause he hoovers occasionally?

Where's my what?

Where have I said women have no agency? Quite the opposite in fact. I have agency. I ensured I was financially independent so that when awful things happened I could provide for my children. I divorced my ex-H. I raise my daughter to have high standards. I have stated that this is important for all girls. I have also noted the importance of raising boys to become good men. I have my own home, a good career. Where have I said women have no agency?

Where have I said women are never at fault? Again, my posts have been nuanced and simply said circumstances vary wildly, and objected to others making sweeping generalisations.

@NocturnalClocks

Your evidence to back up what you're saying. You keep asking others for theirs but haven't provided any of your own.

Tbh I think you just object to something that isn't relevant to you.

You agreed with the pp saying women shouldnt be blamed as its mysoginist victim blaming

I agree with you. I think women should always keep their financial independence and raise their kids to do the same and to promote equality.

If they don't that's when the trouble and notion of blame starts

Your evidence to back up what you're saying. You keep asking others for theirs but haven't provided any of your own.

What is it that I've said that you want me to provide evidence for?

I've been very clear that I don't think people should make the kind of generalisations that have been made on this thread unless they have statistically valid evidence to support them.

I've made no such generalisations about what is the cause of these issues in the majority of cases, so I have made no assertions that require supporting with evidence. I've made nuanced comments and been clear that clearly in some cases these situations result from poor choices, but questioned the prevailing viewpoint in many posts that that is the norm, and asked for data to back that assertion up if anybody has any, which it appears they do not. In which case these assertions are unjustified and appear to be - in an unknown proportion of cases that may be far higher than many suspect - victim blaming.

I have not made any assertion that in most cases there are no signs before children that these men are useless: I specifically stated that in many there clearly are (and we should look as a society at how to address this). I specifically said that I'm happy to accept my own case is an anomaly if anybody does have data to support their viewpoint that it's usually poor decisions from women that leave them in these situations. But it seems we have no idea at a societal level what the proportions are, and that the posters saying "it has nothing to do with luck" appear to have no evidencr to support that. It's not me making assertions about in what proportion of cases there were indicators before having children that the man was an unsuitable father so I am not sure what data you want from me when I've made no assertions either way, rather simply called out assertions made by others which they don't appear to have any evidence to justify? And pointed out that given that we know that at least some women in these situations had no chance to avoid them, and the children certainly didn't in any of the cases, we should be focusing on what to do to address the impact of the behaviour of these pathetic excuses for men as well as educating girls on how to avoid them in the (unspecified proportion of) cases where there are warning signs.

@Botw1 if you can quote what specifically I have said that you want me to evidence, then I will be able to reply.

@NocturnalClocks

Your evidence that what you're objecting to, the generalisations, are false or wrong.

Tbh I think you just object to something that isn't relevant to you.

And yes it absolutely is relevant to me. My children will be subjected to this stigma because they are raised by a single mother. A poster earlier stated that boys raised by single mothers have a scewed idea of masculinity and will grow up with no respect for women. Why should my son be subjected to this? When he's older and wants to date, will other families view him with suspicion as potentially not a good partner or future husband because I've raised him alone?

Why should we as a family be subjected to assumptions from people who don't really know us that somehow this must probably be my fault for making poor choices - that I'm raising them alone - with no evidence to support that that's even likely the reason this happened, statistically? And these kinds of stereotypes are why people accept that it's ok for the tax system to discriminate against single parents (almost all mothers) and don't pressure for change. Even women who should be disgusted by that sex-based discrimination even when it's not affecting them personally. These stereotypes are why people don't campaign for more robust CMS arrangements which reflect the actual cost of raising a child and are enforced with criminal charges for non-payment. Because it must be the mothers having just been stupid and married idiots mostly, so tough luck.

These views are damaging, to women and children. So if people have no evidence to support such views they should re-evaluate why they hold them.

Oh dear.

No. If someone makes an assertion it's for them to justify it.

Otherwise they have no right to make it, and it's just unjustified stereotyping and discrimination and misogyny, in this case.

It's not for other people to have to disprove assertions you make. It's for you to justify them, or be called out on your prejudices.

@NocturnalClocks

Im asking to prove your assertation.

There's plenty evidence to back up mine, as I've said.

The vast majority of women do the vast majority of work. Sexist attitudes are very prevelant in society and in lotos of relationships.

There's not much to generalise on

Women aren't responsible for mens behaviour. Only what they tolerate

Im asking to prove your assertation.

I presume you mean assertion. What assertion that I've made would you like me to provide evidence for? Please quote it.

There's plenty evidence to back up mine, as I've said.

Ok. Where is it?

The vast majority of women do the vast majority of work. Sexist attitudes are very prevelant in society and in lotos of relationships.

I already agreed with both of these things, several times.

There's not much to generalise on

Not sure what this means/ refers to?

Women aren't responsible for mens behaviour. Only what they tolerate

Agreed. As I have throughout the thread. The problem is people making assumptions that women are generally treated badly because they are tolerating bad behaviour from men from the outset and then decide to have children with a man who has shown already that he is useless/ abusive/ lazy etc, rather than because men unforeseeably started to behave abusively when they have had children with said man already (there is plenty of academic research evidencing that this is common in much research on abuse etc).

So, do you have any statistically valid research demonstrating that most women who end up in such relationships had warning signs that the men would behave like this and be abusive/ run off and leave them holding the baby etc before they had children?

@NocturnalClocks

No. For one, I have never made that statement.

For two, Ive not even bothered to look. How would such research exist?

Im happy to stick with my belief that women are raised to tolerate poor behaviour from men and that its objectively obvious that they do so in lots of if not the majority of heterosexual relationships. Pre and especially post children. They trade financial independence for motherhood in a lot of cases.

It's really not an out there suggestion despite your personal offense. You have no evidence to the contrary. Your opinion holds no more weight than mine

Okay. But your personal beliefs with no evidence to support them should be kept to yourself when they are damaging to other people. Not asserted as fact. Much like the belief in sky fairies manipulated and used to control and subjugate women. Women and children shouldn't have to put up with prejudices and stereotypes that disadvantage them purporting to be knowledge when you admit that your views are anything but.

My post was aimed at @Botw1 not you! I think I quoted her, and she was responding to you! I agree with you. I think that blaming the woman is ridiculous. Rather, blame a society that tells us women are to blame. Blame a society that tells women they should put up with a surprising amount of shit. Blame a society that doesn't teach women to spot red flags. Blame a society that doesn't blame men....

And I've mot stated any opinion. Simply asked other people to justify their own. Which evidently you can't.

For a start, we have to acknowledge the problem... not say, 'it's a woman's fault for having children with that useless man". Because the problem is complex but it comes down to a combination of 1. women don't spot red flags 2. women do spot red flags but are told they should ignore them 3. standards for men and women are different 4. women aren't taught to expect more etc etc etc.

@MsMarch my apologies.

@NocturnalClocks

I don't think my view is damaging

🤷

I think unless women acknowledge they're part of the problem nothing will change.

Men won't.

Unless we raise them differently. Unless women stop tolerating poor behaviour. Unless we admit women are part of the sexist society we want to blame

My knowledge is based on facts around sexism and research on division of labour.

@MsMarch

Sounds like we're saying the same thing to me

@NocturnalClocks

Of course you're stating opinions. Lots of them

Most of them because you took offence to a comment that wasn't even relevant to you personally

@Botw1 I think we are saying versions of the same thing. But for me, "women stopping tolerating poor behaviour" is not a thing in itself, it would be the positive consequence of fixing the way we bring men/women up and the different expectations we put on men and women.

It's very hard to be that women who is complaining that there husband doesn't do his share, when you are surrounded by women who get even less and therefore think you are lucky. That woman absolutely should expect more, but when everyone around her is telling her she's wrong, it's very very difficult to break the cycle.

It's every woman who has come on MN to complain that MIL complains because she doesn't cook/clean etc sufficiently. It's every women who is exhausted but who is told her husband needs a good night's sleep so that he can work all day. It's every women who has been accused of gold digging becuase she expects a man to pay his way. I'm on another thread right now - a woman has a cocklodger. His family are excluding her from things she was previously excluded from. There are 100s of posts suggesting what SHE might have done wrong to HIS family. She is breaking up with him and HIS mother is coming round to tell her she's wrong. It's incredibly hard to stand firm when everyone around you is telling you you're wrong.

@MsMarch

Women are part of the problem. They hold sexist and enabling views the same as men do

Women judge how other women parent. How they look. How they dress

We have to change society but society is made up of individuals.

We can't just say its men's problem to solve. Especially not when it's women who suffer the consequences

I never said it was just men's problem to solve. I simply said that society (men AND women) need to stop expecting women to put up with shit. In fact, my examples were largely examples of how other women are often the ones telling women that whatever they're unhappy about is something they should just suck up. But my point is that as long as that continues to happen, you can't say, "a woman must take responsibility for choosing a feckless man."

I am saying I am NOT going to blame a woman for getting herself into a bad situation. Not in 2023. Maybe in 2123 when society has changed and there's zero tolerance to wanker-men overall, then sure, a woman who doesn't spot the red flags can perhaps take some blame. But right now, a woman in this situation is almost always there because she's been told her whole life by men and women that this is how it is, and when she tries to push back, she gets more push back.

I must admit, I wish I had known about Mumsnet when my eldest was a baby 21 years ago.
I'd have put up with far less shit.