Page 19 | Boy breaks grandmother's arm by accident

Nimbostratus100 · 2023-01-27T16:41:43+00:00

I am not going to say what happened next and what I think until I have heard a few objective opinions on here The facts of the case 12 year old boy in sports club, leaving the main entrance on his skateboard, which he has been told is not allowed in the building, knocks over the grandmother coming to collect another child. The grandmother has a broken arm and needed an operation This is a fairly elite sports club, you need to be able to play to a certain standard to by allowed to join. This boy has played there for a year. No serious trouble, several minor reprimands. Reasonably good player. Turns up for the team probably 80-90% of the time. This happened last weekend. The sports club is meeting tomorrow. The parents have just heard that this boy has/has not been expelled and will/will not be there. What do you think should happen? why? I am allocating the voting by a toss of a coin to be random! YABU - the boy should be expelled YANBU - the boy should not be expelled also, what else should happen, as well as/ instead of being expelled? Thank you

kingtamponthefurred · 27/01/2023 21:26

Amazing how many people on this thread are soft as shit. I would have no problem with permanently excluding him from the club and no problem with suing the fuck out of his parents.

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:27

Mark19735 · 27/01/2023 21:21

Why thank you! I love winning the internet.

I'm just highlighting the dissonance between people coming down hard on a 12 year old kid with no evidence of intent, or of circumstance, or of mitigation ... and yet jumping to the defence of a senior citizen with ... no evidence of other mitigating factors.

If a dog had run in front of her, she'd have probably fallen too. Would you want the animal destroyed? If a sudden gust of wind had blown a door shut creating a loud bang, she'd have probably been startled and maybe fallen too. Who would you blame then?

Like I said - if I was defending the kid, I'd absolutely monster this old lady, her faculties, her judgment, and I'd be demanding disclosure of medical records and looking for evidence of pre-existing medical conditions. Anything to cast doubt in the mind of the decision-maker that this kid is as evil and blameworthy as many of the posters on this thread seem to think. That's how an adversarial system works. Seems some people only approve of it when it is used against the poor and vulnerable.

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A dog is no more sentient than a gust of wind so there wouldn’t be anyone to blame. They would be accidents. This boy is over the age of criminal responsibility, sentient and had been told not do ride the skateboard in the building. He ignored it and someone got hurt as a consequence. Not saying it’s evil but definitely blameworthy, and victim blaming as you have outlined here, is batshit.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/01/2023 21:28

Thanks for clarifying, Nimbostratus100
So since the club have already decided on a punishment short of expulsion and nobody else seems to know what the lad's attitude now is, I guess a lot will depend on how he presents when he returns - whether in the words of many he's "learned his lesson" or regards the lesser action taken as licence

I’m quite shocked at the ease with which a lot of posters are ignoring the serious injury to a woman in her 60s

Sadly I'm not; ageism is rife on Mumsnet, and too often tolerated in ways other discrimination (quite rightly) wouldn't be
It would be interesting, though, to hear what the club has done to reach out to the injured lady ...

Blufelt · 27/01/2023 21:28

the club need to make the punishment appropriate to the seriousness of the incident, or risk the family of the injured woman taking it further
Take it further how? The club isn’t legally responsible. Parents aren’t legally responsible for an accident caused by their child. The child might be held responsible in court but it depends whether the judge thinks he should have foreseen that his actions would lead to this accident, which is debatable. Even if the injured woman wins, she can’t be awarded damages because the child has no assets so can’t pay.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:28

AdventFridgeOfShame · 27/01/2023 20:59

@Patineur from the OP leaving the main entrance on his skateboard, which he has been told is not allowed in the building he has been told previously not to take his skateboard.

Although he no doubt intended no harm, he was behaving recklessly and he did cause injuries that are legally described as actual bodily harm.
A possible charge if he was older would be: assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Generally a fine or community service but up to 6 months jail. I'm not suggesting this is a path to follow but the woman injured and her family might.
Best to put in a community based punishment and a suspension, demonstrating that the matter has been addressed seriously.

The club are going to get flack, they need to show that they are in control of the situation and keeping everyone safe.

Why is that directed at me? At no point have I ever suggested what he did was OK.

No-one would be charged with assault on the basis of what we have been told happened. There is no indication whatsoever of the requisite intention.

Blufelt · 27/01/2023 21:29

kingtamponthefurred · 27/01/2023 21:26

Amazing how many people on this thread are soft as shit. I would have no problem with permanently excluding him from the club and no problem with suing the fuck out of his parents.

Parents aren’t legally liable for accidents or damage caused by their child.

saraclara · 27/01/2023 21:29

Blufelt · 27/01/2023 21:23

Age hasn’t been mentioned. Grandmother could be 45-50! So not necessarily old and doddery. Not that it’s relevant.

The question is whether a 12yo could reasonably be expected to foresee that this accident might happen. Obviously he knew he wasn’t supposed to skateboard indoors, but I’d argue that he’s still a child so couldn’t be expected to realise his actions would lead to this accident.

The age has been mentioned. OP originally thought she was around 70, but she workds, so more likely mid 60s probably.

Unlikely to be doddery (says this 67 year old) and vanishingly unlikely to be wearing slippers, but all the same, will probably not mend fast after a fracture that's required surgery

Mark19735 · 27/01/2023 21:32

AdventFridgeOfShame · 27/01/2023 21:23

@Mark19735 you need to remember the egg shell skull stuff.

Also coming across as a misogynistic twat is never a good look.

Only applies if a criminal offense has been committed. "Disobeying sports club rules about skateboarding indoors" isn't mentioned in any statutes AFAIK.

Now, if you are saying the kid assaulted the woman with a skateboard occasioning grievous bodily harm, then it's a different story entirely.

Is that what you are suggesting?

Not sure what you mean about misogynistic twat. Sex and gender have absolutely no bearing on this matter. I'd have thought that was obvious, especially to someone who once read a law textbook and thinks themselves clever.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:33

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:22

I don’t necessarily think he should be expelled, but that’s down to the club. I do think is that there should be a punishment that teaches him it’s not acceptable to ignore rules and do as you like, because obeying those rules interferes with your enjoyment. As I said, actions have consequences and the punishment should teach that those consequences will affect the wrongdoer as well as the victim. There is also the small matter of him being over the age of criminal responsibility, so the club need to make the punishment appropriate to the seriousness of the incident, or risk the family of the injured woman taking it further.

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What crime do you say he committed?

GrantShappsAteMyBrain · 27/01/2023 21:33

Actually after reason OP's updates I've changed my mind. If this boy is vulnerable in some way, doesn't have much of parental support and the sport is what is keeping him on the straight and arrow then no, I don't think he should be expelled or suspended. Some form of consequence yes, ideally something that might help or acknowledge the victim but if the sport is the main good thing in his life then no I wouldn't want that taken away.

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:34

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:16

Yet again, it does not say that he came into the building on his skateboard. It says he arrived at the building on it.

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And was told there was no riding the skateboard inside the building.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:35

kingtamponthefurred · 27/01/2023 21:26

Amazing how many people on this thread are soft as shit. I would have no problem with permanently excluding him from the club and no problem with suing the fuck out of his parents.

I think you would have a problem in suing his parents, as the law does not make parents automatically liable for their children's actions.

Ottil · 27/01/2023 21:36

GrantShappsAteMyBrain · 27/01/2023 21:33

Actually after reason OP's updates I've changed my mind. If this boy is vulnerable in some way, doesn't have much of parental support and the sport is what is keeping him on the straight and arrow then no, I don't think he should be expelled or suspended. Some form of consequence yes, ideally something that might help or acknowledge the victim but if the sport is the main good thing in his life then no I wouldn't want that taken away.

Absolutely this.

There are some extremely unpleasant people on this thread. Horrible to read some of the comments.

EsmeSusanOgg · 27/01/2023 21:37

Patineur · 27/01/2023 20:40

Accidents are the result of carelessness, that's virtually what the term means. If you are going to say something wasn't an accident, you are saying it's deliberate, which you accept isn't the case here. Yes, there are degrees of carelessness, and doing something you have been told not to do is at the top end of the scale, but it's still an accident.

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I've used the word careless for a reason. Because it has a legal meaning. An accident which you tried to prevent/ could not have forseen is a very different to an accident caused by behaviour you could have forseen could cause a problem.

Blufelt · 27/01/2023 21:37

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:35

I think you would have a problem in suing his parents, as the law does not make parents automatically liable for their children's actions.

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Amazing how many people don’t know that! You can sue the child but not the parents. The child might get a slap on the wrist but you won’t get any money because the child doesn’t have any.

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:39

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:33

What crime do you say he committed?

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I didn’t. What I’m saying is that if the family of the victim perceive that the club haven’t taken appropriate action, they may sue.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:50

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:34

And was told there was no riding the skateboard inside the building.

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Oh, FFS. Still arguing for the sake of argument. YES, he was told that. I never said otherwise. You, happily, are conceding (without admitting it) that there is no statement that he came into the building on his skateboard and was told off for it.

WendyAndClyde · 27/01/2023 21:50

GrantShappsAteMyBrain · 27/01/2023 21:33

Actually after reason OP's updates I've changed my mind. If this boy is vulnerable in some way, doesn't have much of parental support and the sport is what is keeping him on the straight and arrow then no, I don't think he should be expelled or suspended. Some form of consequence yes, ideally something that might help or acknowledge the victim but if the sport is the main good thing in his life then no I wouldn't want that taken away.

Yes I'm starting to think this too. He has made a terrible mistake with potentially devastating consequences, but the club might be the one thing that keeps him on the straight and narrow.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:53

EsmeSusanOgg · 27/01/2023 21:37

I've used the word careless for a reason. Because it has a legal meaning. An accident which you tried to prevent/ could not have forseen is a very different to an accident caused by behaviour you could have forseen could cause a problem.

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And? Still an accident, which is likewise important due to its legal meaning. If he had done this deliberately, it would justify much more serious consequences.

BeGentlePeeps · 27/01/2023 21:56

CoffeeThisInstant · 27/01/2023 17:28

I'm thinking about the impact on the grandmother. I'm a grandmother and in full time employment - if I was involved in an incident like this I would be eligible for Statutory Sick Pay only. The impact on my life would be huge, especially if the break wasn't straight forward and I needed to have a lot of time off work. I'm afraid flowers and chocolates wouldn't cut it.

All true re the impact- but getting a 12yo who, from OPs inference may not have had the easiest or supportive of backgrounds, kicked out permanently from a club which gives him direction and focus? Would this make undo any of the results of the injury or feel more like revenge…. An eye for an eye etc?

I vote for rehab on this one. It would be disastrous for anyone to have a broken arm and disability- but personally if the boy is as OP describes, and she sounds incredibly fair and reasonable, I personally would not want my own situation to devastate the near, medium and long term future of a 12 yo child who was thoughtless.

Kids learn (hopefully) by experience and observing how society treats them.

He’s 12- and by all accounts ‘no malice’. Sounds to me like he has definite potential and kicking him out just runs the risk of him losing his path. Which has wider society impact.

Patineur · 27/01/2023 21:58

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:39

I didn’t. What I’m saying is that if the family of the victim perceive that the club haven’t taken appropriate action, they may sue.

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In that case, it is irrelevant that the child is of the age of criminal responsibility.

The family of the victim doesn't have the remotest chance of a claim based on a failure by the club to take appropriate action. They would have to prove some breach of duty by the club at the time of the accident.

Blufelt · 27/01/2023 22:00

Lovelysausagedogscrumpy · 27/01/2023 21:39

I didn’t. What I’m saying is that if the family of the victim perceive that the club haven’t taken appropriate action, they may sue.

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Sue who? The child? It’s a case of civil negligence which is fairly minor anyway. Police won’t get involved because it’s a civil case. The child might get a slap on the wrist and the injured woman would have a huge legal bill to pay. Any sensible solicitor would advise them not to bother.

VerbenaGirl · 27/01/2023 22:17

IsItThough · 27/01/2023 17:46

He should have a reprimand that is appropriate to the transgression and sincerely apologise to the person concerned. Suspension for a couple of games and blanket skateboard ban on grounds. Part of the culpability for the accident lies with the organisers for not enforcing the no skateboard policy more effectively.

Other "boycotting parents" need to have it made clear to them that their interference will not be tolerated - ie their children could face sanctions for not turning up.

The first paragraph of this comment sounds about right to me. The club certainly needs to look at the level of supervision and enforcing safety rules.

saraclara · 27/01/2023 22:24

The club certainly needs to look at the level of supervision and enforcing safety rules.

No club is going to escort each indivdual out of the building when they leave. They're teenagers,

OhmygodDont · 27/01/2023 22:30

This is more like a thread of spot the parents of badly behaved children.

Ultimately he technically injured someone else, accident with intent or not. Abh or gbh don’t actually have to be intended but just a consequence of something you have done. Including where you’ve made a situation dangerous for someone else to harm themselves by your actions.

I have a teen a pre teen and an infant school aged child. Babying a 12 year old does the no favours when it comes to harming others or breaking rules. If the grandmother wanted she could press charges however small they might become.