work issue - who was wrong

[Chouette123]

Who is U?

2 managers, same small team, let's call them Jill and Sandra.
Jill's report Bob has issues with performance. Despite interventions, this does not improve. It has been decided that Bob will be let go.

While this has been discussed, Bob has gone to HR to make a complaint about Jill. They cannot work together, Jill is too controlling and always critical of Bob's work even though his performance is fine, Bob doesn't like the communication style and finds it very rude and so on. HR, Jill and Bob discuss the matter and HR does not find Bob's accusations hold water.

Jill tells Sandra that Bob is about to be let go. Sandra now tells Jill that Bob had also approached Sandra some time ago (before he went to HR) to complain about Jill. Sandra had told Bob that if Bob had addressed those issues to Jill and they didn't find a solution, he could talk to either HR, or Jill's manager.

Jill feels betrayed and that she no longer trusts her colleague. She feels she needed to know this info to protect herself against accusations from Bob. She feels Sandra could have at least given her heads up that Bob might be up to something. Sandra feels that as she was told about the concerns in confidence.

Who is U, Jill or Sandra?

Enjoy the wine, sounds like it's well needed!

Jill's reaction has validated my thoughts that she's a pretty poor manager who isn't emotionally mature enough to be at the level she is.

Have a nice relaxing evening, Sandra. Sounds like you really, really need a break after that week!

Jill sounds a poor manager and if she thinks she could have changed her behaviour then it sounds like Bob might have a case.

Jill sounds like a passive aggressive bully

Always pays the manager to follow up with an e-mail summarising the meeting and confirming the key points.

Gives the staff member the opportunity to disagree and explain it from their own perspective - if they don't they've accepted that it is a true record.

Sounds to me Jill is not acting appropriately if a heads up to change her behaviour is needed. Bob doesn't want to go quietly as feels it's unfair. And if he feels it unfair, there might just be some truth to this. HR don't act in the interest of the employee usually. Unions do though. If she has voiced to Sandra she wanted a heads up to do some things differently, Sandra should be passing this on to HR, as it sounds as if her behaviour is poor, she knows it, and wanted to try hide it.

She should probably hope Bob is not in a union - she won't necessary know about it until quite late. Documentation of verbal conversations is proof, and can be used in tribunals.

If only Bob has documentation of those conversations, it looks better for Bob. Jill can deny all she wants - these things usually come apart in tribunal cases, pretty easily.

If you want to help Jill, I'd advise her to rethink her behaviour and whether it could land her in a tribunal. It's not about whether Jill thinks it's unfair, it's whether in law it is fair. You say poor work performance has been documented, but a tribunal will want to know what effort has been made to support the employee, or even move them to a different role, before letting go. If you're a big company, you're likely in the shit if this hasn't been done.

Not if the manager has only noted the key points from the manager. If no inclusion of the employees point of view was included in the email, then it's a one sided conversation in the first place.

Employees can feel intimidated by managers, this is well recognised, and the lack of 'response' to a useless email re-examing the points of the managers view can be because an employee feels too intimidated to do otherwise.

This usually happens when employees are being bullied by managers and suffering with their mental health as a result. Employees can get to the point of feeling hopeless and that it is useless to engage further.

All an employee needs to document themselves, in this case, it making a written note of how this made them feel, what they disagreed with, and even why they haven't responded.

Thank you PotatoScollop - we are abroad so the legal situation and recourses are not necessarily the same. I do believe efforts have been made to address Bob's performance and the issue seems to be that he firmly refuses to believe it is lacking. But I also believe (knowing Jill and her previous team members) that Bob's complaints about Jill are true.

If anybody has been in a similar situation, how would you behave towards Jill?
Leave it? But we literally sit next to each other, not a very pleasant work environment. Try to explain again that I followed the policy and did nothing wrong? Trouble is she is 100% convinced I was wrong and she was right and I don't think anything will change that.

@Chouette123 you did nothing wrong. Yours and Jill’s manager should have given Jill the heads up as they were involved in performance managing Bob.

Jill has been naive as it’s classic poor performer behaviour to complain about the manager who is doing the performance management. I agree with pp if Jill had been doing it properly she would have followed up with emails etc.

My advice, carry on as normal, engage with Jill on work matters. In relation to Bob avoid the topic, if Jill raises it say I respected Bob’s right to confidentiality and escalated to (line manager).

Jill had no right to know what Bob had (presumably in confidence) discussed with Sandra. Depending on the content Sandra maybe should have raised with HR at the time but I'd certainly suggest she does now, for transparency.
If Jill had grumbled to Sandra about how difficult Bob is (bet she did), should Sandra have told Bob?
I get why Jill is a bit put out but I think that's surprise more than hurt and she will settle in a few days.
If I was Jill I would pleased I had a co worker who had demonstrated trustworthiness and professionalism.

Or you're Sandra and have had just enough of Jill's crying/mardiness/outrage

Yep. This

You're clearly Jill

I'm not much of a creative writer so thank you, I tried to write it from her perspective.
But now I'm getting a bit angry. She really made me doubt myself and basically apologise for my horrible mistake, when all I did was follow the policy.

If you aren't Jill then stay away from Jill. I feel there might be quite a lot you don't know.

I don't know why this would be a concern if she was happy she'd done everything by the book. Bob will have to evidence his allegations. If he makes things up, he won't be able to back them up.

However, my feeling is that she's crapping herself now because she's in the wrong!

Bob's performance issues are documented, Jill's manager agrees that measures are not working and he needs to go

In that case I doubt Jill has much to worry about, and as Sandra neither do you since you acted professionally

It's common for those being disciplined to hurl unfounded accusations in the hope something will stick and get them off the hook, but since he's going things will hopefully settle down and Jill will come to realise you did the right thing

Bob is the unreasonable one. He tried to play Sandra off against Jill. If he had a problem with his direct line manager he should have addressed it directly with her or gone to HR. Not bitched to a 3rd person.

But Sandra should have spoken to Jill to let her know that one of her (Jill ‘DS) team was complaining about her to a 3rd part (ie Sandra). And Jill shouldn’t have said anything to Sandra.

No wonder they’re letting Bob go.

YANBU at all. You acted professionally and went about everything in the right way. When Bob complained to you, you acknowledged that you weren’t the appropriate person to have that conversation with and redirected him to a more appropriate person. I don’t know what else you could have done.

Sounds like the working environment is toxic and management aren't to be trusted.
The issue should have been dealt with at the first instance.
Leadership team should have better communication and a better system in place for staff grievances.

OP, you should submit your own complaint to HR as Jill is now bullying you and creating a hostile work environment. What country are you in as some of us might be able to advise on what Bob could do next?

HarryWindsor I'm considering my options. We had a meeting with Jill and she called me some names that would not be considered appropriate by any standards. Any.
But first it's of course my word against hers. She's perfectly fine if anything if other people are present, or in her emails. And second, I don't think anything will happen as a result.
I know it makes me sound like a wet lettuce, but our joint manager, while a lovely well meaning person, is also the conflict avoider of the century.

Good points.

I stand corrected. Feeling intimidated can be paralysing.

Well I'm feeling bad for Bob now! Looks like he was right about Jill.
And maybe his performance issues were caused by Jill's behaviour.
I hope Bob finds a better role in the future and that you can straighten things out in your job OP!