To think that the opposite of woke, is asleep?

[QuertyGirl]

Following on from a conversation with my elderly (but very with it) Aunt the other day.

She stated that she was anti-woke and I asked her if that just meant that she wasn't interested in equality, social justice any more. Being literally "asleep" to this sort of thing, as opposed to being awake or "woke". She definitely is not asleep to that stuff.

Another conversation with a (middle aged like me) friend and we agreed that when woke is used as an insult, it's no different to the old "political correctness gone mad" cry.

So, is anti-woke to be willingly asleep to stuff?

That frank luntz chap needs to step away from power point, totall unreadable

@Aarohi Sorry but I choose not to debate with someone who thinks that you can Insult others based on their skin colour no matter which side of the coin your on and If hiding behind a culture of woke that empowers you to do so, then I have zero time for you or your fight.

It is remarkable, isn't it, that you have to say this TreadLight!

The Dark Ages didn't happen.

1984 is interesting, in respect of the controlling of history.

The UK has taught an almost antiquarian view for years and the recent decolonisation of history is actually the reverse of what 1984 was talking about. It's revising history as written by the victors - ie western elite.

I think Brave New World is more relevant to society now. The mandatory fun and increasing hierarchical society we live in scares me

Then good day to you, sir. No need to be sorry. I think I have made it very clear where I stand and your misrepresenting my position does you no good.

You gamble on the idea that people are inherently arsenals. I disagree, and will continue to disagree.

This is a pdf version of "YouGov - Defining 'Woke'"

docs.cdn.yougov.com/xu2oj6jxzz/YouGov%20-%20What%20is%20woke.pdf

Incels are a great example. They gather strength of attitude and opinion by being isolated alongside only with those who agree with them.

There is not a single person in the world with whom you will have exact matching opinions, and even those with the closest matches will probably not prioritise "most important issues" the same way as you.

By engaging in conversation, opening yourself and others up to connection, asking questions, listening to answers, you may - may - reduce these extremist opinions. You might change your mind; I know I have plenty of times over my lifetime. You might change their mind.

The point is, deciding someone holds utterly intolerable views and refusing to maintain any connection with them doesn't benefit anyone. It fragments society and allows toxic views (however you define them) to ferment with other toxic views, encouraging them into real world actions and behaviours. If those incels were sitting around in a pub with friends who might be able to engage in conversation with them, along with playing darts or whatever, maybe they wouldn't feel so angry and isolated that it meant those incel groups were their only space to exist.

It's not always nice talking to people with views we don't like, but it is what participating in the human race is about.

The belief that there are systemic injustices in society and the need to address them.

I guess the opposite is not thinking there are these injustices and/or not thinking they need to be addressed.

That said, vocal people who identify as "anti-woke" really mean anti-pc, anti-cancel culture, not going to state pronouns, etc. So it really is muddled and people need to define what they mean in a better way. I think the anti-wokers ruined it because they didn't do a better job defining what they are specifically against.

(and it's okay to think society is moving too far into this narcissistic offended at any and everything and shut it down if I think it's offensive view. But calling that 'anti-woke" is sloppy.

So, you didn't read it?

Ok. here are some other highlights. Remember this was a study that was investigating 'woke' and 'cancel culture' by political segmentation.

Is Cancel Culture a Good Thing:

Totally Agree 25%

The break down:
men 18-39 44%
Labour mums 44%
Ages 18-29 42%
Labour/work heart 40%
Living month to month 38%

Describing Cancel Culture

It's a bad thing. It enforces a "thought and speech police" that shuts down free speech, diverse opinions, and honest discussion. It can even ruin lives.

40% total
34% Labour
and 48% Tory

It's a good thing. If you have said or done something that is obviously sexist, racist, or hurtful towards marginalised communities, you should face the consequences.
.
25% total
33% Labour
and 18% Tory

Which statement about "Woke culture" comes closest to your view?

I reject and oppose Woke-ism strongly. It is just a new form of discrimination that shuts down alternate opinions and voices. It is not about true equality; it is about dividing us further.

30% total
15% Labour
and 43% Tory

I believe in the objectives behind the word Woke, but the term is a problem, and I don't like some of what it represents. Woke principles are about correcting the historic injustices that fill our society - which is necessary. However, I believe the word Woke has been politicised.

27% total
35% Labour
and 20% Tory

I am proud to be Woke, because it means I care about injustices like systemic racism, classism, sexism, and bias against the LGBTQIA+ community. To me, it's a compliment.

15% total
27% Labour
and 7% Tory

I don't know what Woke means

29% total
23% Labour
and 30% Tory

No, I'm not reading 184 bad power point slides on my phone.

What you've got there is some data.

A study, has a hypothesis, RQ's, methodology, analysis, conclusions and peer review.

But is calling her being anti equality and social justice any different?

Nothing to say about the rest of my post? Where did you think women’s rights came from?

Im sure you think k you’re so very right-on now OP but give it a few decades before young people are telling you that you don’t know a thing about equality. Because, culturally, the world will be somewhere else

PS you aren’t fooling anyone with your word salad.

And you’ve completely missed the point of 1984.

As much as we like to think, opinions are NOT objective therefore cannot be objectively wrong.

That also conflates with facts.

A man cannot be a woman. That is a fact. It’s also seen by many as being ‘objectively wrong’.

Laws protect vulnerable people from hate and violence but they don’t stop individual opinions and nor should they.

Im not sure why people are keen to be in a world where one opinion on each subject rules all.

No.

But do you believe the answer is to not let them speak their thoughts and then counter them?

If they are posting hate, they need to have that deleted. If they are engaging with people, then allow people with different views to speak their thoughts to counter those extremists.

Yes, shut down radicalisation avenues. But the answer is to let them engage and to have people to engage with them.

Again, it is the very definition of 'hate' that is also at the core here.

When 'hate' can be described as 'misgendering' or 'by not recognising someone's identity', where do we go from there?

The framing of things as 'hate' when they are not hateful or motivated by hate is damaging and needs to be addressed. I read another study very recently that said that 'content warnings don't actually help those who are distressed by the content'. I will see if I can find it too or maybe it was an interview and the study has yet to be released.

It was interesting, because the researcher said that creating a 'safe space' for reading something that was considered triggering, in the end left the person distressed and as anxious anyway.

You are making some enormous and patronising assumptions that are not borne out by OP's post.

Where did I say that she was anti-equality or anti-social justice?

If by "word salad" you mean big words that you don't understand, dictionaries are available.

1984 is much misused. Try reading down and out along with it

And I have pulled out the 'data' that the study produced.

It is just one of the studies that I posted. I apologise profusely that it was not in a format that you can read.

@Helleofabore

It's not a study.

And no, I cannot find the raw data for this, nor the collective mechanic.

If you want to quibble about degrees of extremism, go for it.

Would you like to engage with the other studies I posted to highlight that a particular age group sees themselves as tolerant, when in fact they are not and are the least tolerant in society?

I believe it was based off

Three nationwide surveys, 4,500 interviews, more than 200 questions, and two focus groups.

I believe this is the presentation given to those who commissioned the studies. Hence why there is no raw data available. It was proprietary research and the owners don't want to publish more than this pdf.

You can discount it all you like. It is merely one research project that has shown similar findings.

And @QuertyGirl you too can quibble about whether it was a 'study' or not. We have no way of knowing whether it was a private study with all the elements that you detail including some peer review.

So, far you have complained about it and not actually engaged with it or the others.

That is fine.

I also happen to know that on threads like these, those reading along will go and look at those links and will make their own minds up. The information is there for people to access and think about.

Which is all anyone can ever want or expect.

To me “woke” means jumping on the bandwagon with every latest #bekind story, getting angry at anyone with a view that differs from theirs, accepting “facts” they’ve found online without any individual research or ever looking at the other side, close-minded and usually smacks of aggressive virtue signalling. I usually attribute it mainly to the younger generation, usually university students (like 18yo ds and his gf who think middle-aged women who don’t happily accept men in their female-only spaces are bigots and transphobes) who haven’t had the life experience or walked the walk of older people who tend to have a more critical mindset and take the time to either come to their own conclusion based on experience or evidence and also take a more balanced approach to things.

To me “woke” has become a negative word but I’m careful not to use it myself as I don’t like placing generalisations on anyone.

Yes. I have read them (and the many very enlightening ones I see while lurking in FWR!) and appreciate those of you who post them.

Woke people are the new Puritans

We always have these moralising movements in society. They take good ideas and notions way too far and get all pious about it.

Which is a shame.

Thank you gap

In this instance, I do find it weird that someone has decided to query 'study'. I did not say they were 'peer reviewed academic papers' and in my field of work, a 'study' has been interchanged with research project.

I do find it interesting to see people's reactions to them though. I am amused by the doubling down on one person's definition of a 'study' on this thread where we are also discussing the many varied interpretations of words.

It did seem fitting.

But thank you for delurking to post.

a 'study' has been interchanged with research project. Should be

A 'study' has been interchangeable with 'research project' for a couple of decades.