To think that the opposite of woke, is asleep?

[QuertyGirl]

Following on from a conversation with my elderly (but very with it) Aunt the other day.

She stated that she was anti-woke and I asked her if that just meant that she wasn't interested in equality, social justice any more. Being literally "asleep" to this sort of thing, as opposed to being awake or "woke". She definitely is not asleep to that stuff.

Another conversation with a (middle aged like me) friend and we agreed that when woke is used as an insult, it's no different to the old "political correctness gone mad" cry.

So, is anti-woke to be willingly asleep to stuff?

‘Educate yourself’ as the woke are fond of saying.

Isn't a lot of this actually about Popper's Paradox of Intolerance?

People describe woke people as intolerant because, they don't tolerate things that they see as intolerance?

I rarely see anyone who has been discussing relevant issues for some time use the term as an insult towards individuals though. I have seen people use it to describe attitudes of groups of people.

I think those who use the term as an insult towards an individual may be new to the discussion and may not yet have worked out their position clearly in their head.

I find I have a similar reaction to you when 'woke' is used. I have a strong reaction of thinking that someone has no critically thought through argument when I see the terms 'right wing' thrown around. Because to me it is lazy and it is all about emotional manipulation.

Either of the poster (self manipulation) using it to make themselves feel better, purer or whatever, or to silence the discussion that others are engaged in. Particularly when other posters are asking for evidence to support clearly emotive or false statements.

That's a fair point. Both are intolerant and closed minded for sure and both contain a grain of truth.

Woke to me has come to mean the attitude of not enquiring too closely into the causes that are being espoused. It's about being seen to do a tweet / reel that looks socially conscious and "right" but not applying thought.

It started out as a positive thing but to me it's people screaming with their fingers in Their ears.

'The loudly woke' and ' the self-proclaimed anti-woke'.

This is how I see them both, pointing fingers. 2 sides of the same coin.

There's a very strong link between 'woke' and virtue signalling evangelicalism. It's their way or the high way and everyone must think the same.

I've tried educating myself. The problem is that, left to my own devices, I often end up finding their position varies between misguided, wrong and absolutely barking mad.

Thing is, it only seems like a paradox to intolerant people.

Tolerance means being able to rub along with people who totally disagree with you even on prettt fundamental matters of conscience and accept they have a right to that. Most people already do that just fine, and assuming woke doesn't spread too much, will continue to do so. It really isn't that hard.

If you start using words like unacceptable to describe other people having opinions, and thinking you have to "fight" against the very concept of other people in the world taking a different view to you, then you become an agent of chaos regardless of the claimed motivation. It is intolerant.

"Woke" is a term that comes from black communities in the USA, and originally referenced the unique situation of people in these communities versus mainstream US culture and politics. For a time, it was also used by black communities outside of the USA who felt themselves to be in similar circumstances and drew inspiration from the struggles in the USA.

At some point, it began to be used internationally to indicate a person who either had or - much more commonly as time went on - wanted, expected, and demanded to be perceived as having - generally progressive and left-wing ideas and values. In short: people who were not black (or mixed race with black ancestry) co-opted "woke" in an inappropriate and appropriative manner.

I have no time for anyone who is not black or mixed race calling themselves "woke". But I also do not like people who have no connection to blackness calling other people "woke" as an insult.

Stop. Read this. If you are someone who is not black and has no black ancestry, please butt the fuck out and get your own word.

(If you are black and somehow don't know, the opposite of woke is sleepin. Maybe. Depending on where you live. You're welcome, sort of. But really, don't try to use it if you're still confused; you'll just make a prat of yourself.)

I really don’t like seeing ‘woke’ used as an insult. I imagine most know that the term was originally used, by the black community in the US, in the context of being aware of issues of social (predominantly racial) inequality.

It has, of course, expanded beyond that, but I do think anti-racism remains at its core (certainly the term became popular, outside of the black community, with the rise of BLM).

While I don’t imagine for a moment that everyone who uses the term as a pejorative is declaring that they are an out-and-proud racist, if you have a particular issue with certain popular (or fringe) left wing beliefs, why not specifically refer to those beliefs rather than denigrating anti-racism and other social-justice positions in a wholesale manner?

It all seems very calculated on behalf of the right wing press, in particular. Highlight some examples of perceived ‘political correctness gone mad’, label them ‘woke’, then you can dismiss any and all ‘undesirable’ views (or products, or tv shows, etc) as being ridiculous with one handy buzzword.

yes. People describe a group of people, who might use woke to describe themselves, as being intolerant, because they don't tolerate other people's legitimate views.

They think it is tolerant to block entrance (with some assault happening as well) of women of all political alignments who want to see for themselves a film about women discussing their issues? Because if any poster thinks that is 'tolerant', then I disagree with you .

twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1603099110810128384?s=20&t=vvLxUOknU06ddtyMup2MOA

To me, tolerant would be to allow people to go in and watch and then discuss with clarity and without aggression your point of view. I watched this happen at another university where a small group of students were protesting the lack of investigation into a senior member of staff. They politely talked to people as they entered the venue, there was signage all around, they allowed the presentation to go on and when questions were being allowed, they put their questions out there. they didn't call for the presentation to be cancelled, or anything like that. And people sat and listened.

I can also post video footage of people who declare themselves as 'tolerant' drowning out women's voices, with assaults, and threats and simply intimidation if people would like to continue to believe that women are over exaggerating what 'tolerant' people have been doing while declaring themselves the most 'tolerant'.

I am very happy to. I am about to get OP those links from those studies, I am happy to find them as well.

Blocking women from viewing a video about a feminist view point that even ending up with at least one woman assaulted, is not tolerant in my view. But here we are.

I can't think that many "woke" people are in favour of the monarchy.

Yes, they're bullies who delude themselves that they are good people.

@QuertyGirl

Here is one.

cps.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Britain-Speaks-by-Dr-Frank-Luntz.pptx-1.pdf

Look at the questions:

Have you ever stopped talking to someone, whether in person or online, because of something political they said?

53% 18-29 year olds said yes
33% 30-49 year olds said yes
18% 50-64 & 14% 65+

Has someone ever stopped talking to you, whether in person or online, because of something political YOU said?

36% 18-29 year olds said yes
28% 30-49 year olds said yes
13% 50-64 & 11% 65+

This discussion brings a quote from Lewis Carroll to mind.

"When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all."

I wonder which rabbit hole this conversation will end up going down!

If we tolerate intolerance, how can we maintain a tolerant society though?

Stop. Read this. If you are someone who is not black and has no black ancestry, please butt the fuck out and get your own word.

Okay, that word was around in the 1800`s and you cannot appropriate a word for your own no matter what skin colour you are. Maybe you should learn some tolerance of other people which have a different skin colour to yourself also. 👊

Stop. Read this. If you are someone who is not black and has no black ancestry, please butt the fuck out and get your own word.

I take the view there's no kind of person who has to fall silent because of their skin colour: racism is bad in principle not on a case by case basis.

Totally understand what you're saying, the delusional belief in black/white categories of human being has been a wellspring of trouble and violence for a long time.

This whole thing proves one thing, most people have no idea what the word means! I am always shocked that people are happy to use words (or state 'facts') that they haven't bothered to look up and have no idea the meaning of.

How is "political" being defined here?

Because people are allowed to hold diverse opinions as long as they are 'legal' and not a hate crime.

The creep of what has become seen as 'intolerant' is the issue. That has narrowed considerably for many reasons.

Ugh I couldn’t imagine being late used by someone much younger with me and likely half as much life experience.

I know you probably think saying “The opposite of woke is asleep” is some kind of bomb drop to insult people who don’t automatically, and without question, tow the party line of Gen Z-ers. But it’s a colloquialism. And personally I think it’s far more ‘asleep’ to believe in regressive and discriminatory concepts such as gender, and calling non-silent women Karen, as seems to be popular with many young people today.

This movement that some people have whereby they aggressively insist that everyone else has the exact same beliefs they do - even people who grew up in an entirely different generation - is truly bizarre.

I can go and check, but how is that actually relevant?

Dare I say it, by listening to them. Find one thing you and they can agree on. It could be a favourite song or a holiday destination you both enjoyed. Once you have started a conversation, found some common ground, you may find they start listening to you, maybe agreeing in some way with your tolerant point of view and the world becomes fractionally more tolerant.

Shouting and screaming at someone and telling them they are wrong only entrenches their views.

So if you want the world to be more tolerant, start by listening.