To think this is the WHOLE POINT of tax?

[wheresmymojo]

Daily Fail are frothing today that higher earners pay more tax, and lower earners get more out in various benefits than they pay in.

I thought even the DF understood that the entire point of tax, it's whole reason for existing, is to re-distribute wealth to some extent with the wealthier paying more so that the less wealthy can benefit from a better standard of living?

Have I missed something - are there people who don't know this is what tax is fundamentally supposed to do?

I mean, I'm being fairly genuine...are there actually people who think it's like a bank account and you 'pay in' to 'get out'?

There are very few people who put in more than they take out. Not least because many people who are high earners still believe in using state resources.

The top earners make up only about 3% of the population and contribute the most revenue.

It's an interesting one as the majority of working people want the tax system to be about paying for the services we use in a fair manner with a safety net. It seems to have become a lifestyle choice to prop up a segment of society such as those choosing to work 16 hours or start a family despite being in minimum wage jobs.

What I meant to say it, it has always been this way.

Well, the DM has sunk to a new low. Disgusting shit stirring Tory panderers, ugh!

Personally I think the tax rates need updating, and somewhat controversially, need to be paid by more people. Most socialist governments have much lower tax thresholds than we do, but higher at the higher end as well, more people pay in, more people get more out. Apparently this leads to more buy in for all the people from top to bottom, you are all contributing to a greater good. The ultimate socialist society.

I would like to see a lower rate at the bottom end, but more people paying it, a graded tax rate for middle earners, and a graded tax rate for top earners. We all airily talk about the top 5% or top 1%, but this group encompasses £120k to £infinity, and that is ridiculous. We are classed as a top 1%, but right at the bottom end, we are lumped in with multi-millionaires, we are comfortable, of course we are, but no way are we living a champagne lifestyle of the uber rich.

The headline is absolutely fucking disgusting and pathetic. The cost of living crisis due to conservative action based on their shitty ideology is what causes people to be in this position.

I thought this too until the other day I was reading on here about cost of living crisis in New Zealand, making Jacinda Ardern less popular

I do love the fact that people who state they are in the higher tax bracket, or in the top XX% of high earners, bemoan the fact that they work long hours. This is to me is very disingenuous. I too work with decent salaried people and some very high earners, and the amount of empty suits, is nothing short of incredible. The actual very little output they offer is truly astounding and yet we do have some people that work so many hours for so little money. The amount of high earners that could be culled from their roles with little impact on productivity must be so high. Most of those, dare I say, are probably sitting in the public sector.

So to make sure more people are paying in rather than getting more one solution would be to abolish the state pension? Why haven't they lead with that headline??

Also maybe the % of the population getting more is rising due to people living longer? Maybe the Daily Mail would rather pensioners died younger like in the good ol' days??

Other solutions- cut private rents to council rent levels
Massively increase wealth taxes and taxes for top 5%

So you are saying that people shouldn't be allowed to have children if they have a minimum wage job? That's nasty.

The country needs these minimum wage jobs and an ageing population needs children to be born to 'look after' it. Both personally and in a wider sense.

At the moment, rich people get richer at the expense of the poor.

Because the assets are held as a sovereign not as a private individual. The years of inheritance tax has lead to many stately homes becoming ruins so the rule was introduced to keep the Royal family independent. To be honest inheritance tax should exist the money has already been taxed once

@Loveisloveis yup I don't think anyone should have kids that they can't afford to raise without state help.

Maybe because no one is ever taught this? I think there should be more education about taxes in schools.

Loveisloveis · Today 11:08
MrsSkylerWhite · Today 09:43
You’re not wrong.

I do find it alarming though that 36 million people are receiving more from the state than they’re paying in contributions. That, clearly, can’t continue, just can’t be sustained.

Wages need to be set at a realistic level, so people don’t need state top ups just to survive.Loveisloveis · Today 11:08

“There are very few people who put in more than they take out. Not least because many people who are high earners still believe in using state resources”

Can only speak from personal experience. Our kids went to independents, had private care during pregnancy/childbirth etc. have no issue whatsoever with paying tax, grateful to be in a privileged position compared to many.

@MrsSkylerWhite The biggest time bomb in the UK is the lack of young, working people coming into the country

That's nonsense.

We have plenty of young people - some don't seem to want to work.

Approximately 10.5 percent of people aged 16 to 24 were unemployed in the United Kingdom in the three months to October 2022, the highest of any age group. Between 1992 and 2022, older age groups have had much lower unemployment rates than 16-24-year-old's, who have consistently had the highest unemployment rate.

Even supposing some will be students 10.5% seems a lot. In any case, being a student doesn't stop you working in the holidays.

I don't think you know what the law actually is in regards to 'propping up'. Nobody gets propped up since the coalition got in in 2010. Those who are not disabled have their benefits cut if they aren't able to prove that they are looking for full time work.

Disabled people are the one who get extra support, which is exactly as it should be.

No, it isn’t nonsense. Our ageing population is a time bomb.

Our young people work, hard, as do their peer groups.

It's shocking as it's unsustainable. Most rational people view tax as a way to provide essential services with financial support for those who need it, not for topping up inadequate wages as businesses don't want to pay living wages surely? I'd say its these businesses rather than individuals on the whole who are the problem. Sure some are happy to scrounge off the state for no reason, but an absolute minority.

@Grumpybutfunny and where do you draw the line at 'state help'? Do your children go to state school? Do they use the NHS? Did you give birth in a NHS hospital?

All of the above are 'state help' I think you'll find.

Wookiebowl · Today 11:16
It's shocking as it's unsustainable. Most rational people view tax as a way to provide essential services with financial support for those who need it, not for topping up inadequate wages as businesses don't want to pay living wages surely? I'd say its these businesses rather than individuals on the whole who are the problem. Sure some are happy to scrounge off the state for no reason, but an absolute minority.“

You’ve said exactly what I’ve been trying to say, but more succinctly 😁

Maybe it'll stop some of the scorn people on decent wages get for daring to be well off though, without them and their wages we would be even more fucked. Of course tax dodgers deserve the ire.

It is difficult. And irksome when continuously posters talk about “the rich” as if it’s a binary situation of being either a fat-cat billionaire or on benefits. So many of us are stuck in the middle, on PAYE so no avoidance opportunities, and feeling that we are increasingly being milked because it’s too problematic to reform benefits or chase the tax evaders.

I read yesterday that billions is lost in fraud from people who live abroad claiming they live here. Before I pay any more tax I want a truly robust system for rooting out fraud.

In fact I know a person claiming a pension here and housing benefit in her married name, and a pension and housing benefit in a European country in her maiden name. She owns both properties but they are in the names of someone else. Now she was investigated, but it was so complicated they gave up. This is one person; no doubt there are countless others.

'To be honest inheritance tax should exist the money has already been taxed once'

Assuming that this should read 'shouldn't exist'?

Inheritance tax absolutly should exist. Wealth in accumulated property and pensions is one of the biggest reasons we have such a huge disparity in wealth between the top 10% and the rest in this country .

Also, you get to the end of your life and you have savings. Hurrah. But ultimatly that means you have accoumulated more than you needed to use over your lifetime. Why shouldn't some (not all) of this excess go back to the state that will have played some part in facilitating the accumulation of this excess?

It's money. The distribution of money is more relevant than the distribution of people.

The top 10% of people hold 50% of wealth. Of course they should pay more tax.

"I don't think anyone should have kids that they can't afford to raise without state help.

A couple both working full time hours should be able to earn enough so that they can afford a couple of kids. The fact that wages are so low that they need state help is a disgrace.